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i think there were reports of gts being faster than gt3, at least in some cases or on some tracks. search gt3 forum for the threads.
There is a video in GT forum with one GT3RS and GT3 in a drag race.
The cars are extremely fast therefore i am not sure a GTS can be so fast as a GT car.
In case the GTS is minimum specs to have low weight with PCCBs and lightweight wheels which can save some extra HP in rotation mass it might be close to a GT car.
For sure is COBB comes to the game then the story is completely different.
Decision point between a GTS and a GT3 for me is 2 or 4 seats and NA or Turbo.
Of course if someone needs a cabrio or targa then there is no argument at all.
^ I hear ya, K-A, and have always liked the NA 3.4s from Porsche—whether in 996.1, 987.1, 987.2, etc. form. They sound great, and have a really nice power band if you are game to wind them out.
One silver lining in all of the movement toward turbo engines of late is that the results are in and regulatory bodies have figured out that they're good at passing standardized tests but not necessarily better than NA when it comes to total efficiency and emissions in real use. In other words, when turbos blow, turbos drink. Will be interesting to see if we'll start to see a movement back towards NA engines, or if the electrification movement will distract those writing policy and business plans. Whatever the case, I am not sure the future looks like we are told it does...
This seems to depend on both the manufacturer and also on how much downsizing accompanies the switch to turbocharging. The Ford EcoBoost engines seems to have little headroom above the power requirements of the fule economy tests. Once they are making any appreciable boost, they seem to get into enrichment to limit detonation very rapidly--with negative effects on fuel economy. However, BMWs, for example, are much better and the real-world efficiency of their downsized turbocharged engines easily exceed that of their naturally-aspirated predecessors.
On the 991.2, the car still has a large displacement engine, especially relative to its size and weight, and can do virtually any daily driving task without making any boost at all. On the highway, my base Carrera consistently exceeds 30 mpg at a true 80+ mph, which few cars can do. I haven't tested the maximum speed it can achieve on level ground without getting into boost, but I'm sure it's comfortably above 100 mph.
Of course, efficiency is very dependent on the behavior of the driver and the driving environment. If you use all of your gears and shift at low rpm, you'll get great mileage. If you always upshift at 4-5000 rpm, even in city traffic and eschew seventh gear, your mileage will suffer. At the extreme, on track days, my car averages 9 mpg and won't make it through four sessions on a full tank of fuel.
I'm obviously biased toward NA motors but have to give the .2 cars credit for sounding pretty decent...at least compared to our 535GT barge...
Stout - you've planted an "ITB" (individual throttle bodies) bug in my head that I can't seem to get rid of. This year I'm rebuilding the M3 motor (main and connecting rod bearings), next yet might be #ITB2020! 😜
^ I hear ya, K-A, and have always liked the NA 3.4s from Porsche—whether in 996.1, 987.1, 987.2, etc. form. They sound great, and have a really nice power band if you are game to wind them out.
One silver lining in all of the movement toward turbo engines of late is that the results are in and regulatory bodies have figured out that they're good at passing standardized tests but not necessarily better than NA when it comes to total efficiency and emissions in real use. In other words, when turbos blow, turbos drink. Will be interesting to see if we'll start to see a movement back towards NA engines, or if the electrification movement will distract those writing policy and business plans. Whatever the case, I am not sure the future looks like we are told it does...
I tend to think the future will be electric (either full EV or hybrid). Carbon emissions are going to be the drivers of the policy and business plans. Or, fuel cell technology.
I'm obviously biased toward NA motors but have to give the .2 cars credit for sounding pretty decent...at least compared to our 535GT barge...
Stout - you've planted an "ITB" (individual throttle bodies) bug in my head that I can't seem to get rid of. This year I'm rebuilding the M3 motor (main and connecting rod bearings), next yet might be #ITB2020! 😜
Happy motoring to all
535GT...what has happened to BMW? Remember when every BMW was special? I do...even a 528e was. Now they're just cheap lease come-ons.
Very interesting on the ITB V8!!! Do share as it comes together. Even us Porsche guys are often car guys first...
Try it on the roads of LA, currently 3rd worst in the country behind SF and San Jose. Here's a fun little stretch of Mulholland I bent a wheel and control arm on a few years back. The 405 sucks, the 110 sucks the 10 sucks, the 5 sucks. All the surface streets suck. I got my wife into a base model CX5 with the smaller diameter wheels, because the taller sidewalls are needed to deal with all the potholes without getting a flat or bending a wheel.
That's why I left LA, not the main reason, but one of the biggys.
I just bought an18 Targa 4GTS. I have friends with GT3 and GT3 RS's. They told me point blank if I get a tune I will add another hundred horsepower which will put me with a cat back exhaust to 570 hp. The nice thing with that set up is if you don't want to hear the loud or exhaust you could shut off the PSE and it's back to normal. So at the end of the day whether you get a Targa or just a coupe GTS you're pretty much smoke any GT car out there except for the GT2.
I just bought an18 Targa 4GTS. I have friends with GT3 and GT3 RS's. They told me point blank if I get a tune I will add another hundred horsepower which will put me with a cat back exhaust to 570 hp. The nice thing with that set up is if you don't want to hear the loud or exhaust you could shut off the PSE and it's back to normal. So at the end of the day whether you get a Targa or just a coupe GTS you're pretty much smoke any GT car out there except for the GT2.
Yup. Pretty much the awesomeness of being able to tune turbo engines. flickrolls gts is solidly over 600 crank hp with bolt-ons and a tune. He's still on the stock turbos even.
535GT...what has happened to BMW? Remember when every BMW was special? I do...even a 528e was. Now they're just cheap lease come-ons.
Very interesting on the ITB V8!!! Do share as it comes together. Even us Porsche guys are often car guys first...
Fully agreed, the E generation 3 series was the last good batch of cars. My 9yr-old 3 series has great handling, lowly NA inline-6 rated at a whopping 240HP and a hydraulic steering that's a lot more lively than the GTS...totally fun to drive. Back to that thread of yours "is 370HP enough..." On an all-around fun car, I'd settle for even less...think Spec Miatas...
Dinan has S65 ITBs for around $2k, once the core is returned to them, that might be the route to go.
Originally Posted by K-A
Sad truth.
Agreed and why i stepped back in time with buying the E92 M3, there is no path for me to go forward.
Back on topic. I've been enjoying reading this thread and would love to test drive a GT3 one day to find out how it feels relative to our .1GTS. I'm not driving much these days and need to focus on clocking more miles behind either wheel, not endlessly contemplating the next car purchase...or an upgrade to a GT3.
stout and bemo -- have you guys driven an M2 or M2C?
I'm neither of these guys but have driven the M2 on road and track - blunt instrument, feels heavier than it is and falls apart beyond 9/10ths - ok road car of which there are many ok road cars.
If if you are used to modern Porsche sports cars its very much a backward step. The same reviewers that rated the 1M highly tend to rate the M2C - the 1M was utter crap, no body control, oversteer and understeer, under braked - mutton dressed as lamb.
The Honda Type R or Megane RS275 are way better drivers cars. I haven't driven a decent bimmer since the Z4M circa 2006. Sad but true.
Used to DD a MT 991.2 4S. Amazing car and agree with everything that has been said. Now have a 991.2 GT3 MT and picked up an E39 M5 as a daily anticipating that I wouldn't want to DD the GT3 but having put about 2k miles on the GT3 I totally could DD it. Yes its louder, and less comfy than the 4S but you don't need to have extreme tolerances to use it regularly. If you want the sound / feel / rawness of a GT car just get a GT3. If you want similar enough performance but more comfort is important get a GTS. Its not a performance decision or track / street decision, both can do it all. They just do it with very different personalities.
Ended up keeping the E39 (greatest bmw ever in my biased opinion), just use them 50/50 instead of how I intended.
No need here for a BMW.
My loaded C2S with PDK, X51 PowerKit and every available 991.2 performance option is all I need. 475 Hp and 415 ft-lbs torque and awesome exhaust sounds, with catless pipes and BMC. And it's loaded with luxury options, like sunroof, Bose, full leather with ventilated seats, keyless entry, parking sensors etc etc. It's not missing anything. Oh, and it is fast. Faster than the 991.1 GT3 on the Nordschleife and very close to the 991.2 GT3.
If i were a total track rat, driving a beater daily to work, i probably would prefer a GT3. But me? Im not needing a GT3 or a BMW, thanks.
Haven't tried M2 or M2C. Last BMW I tried was current M3 at Thermal, and was thoroughly shocked at how bad it was considering the badge on the trunk. No communication...as in just about none. I can't remember a car where I thought I was taking it easy (5/10ths) one moment and correcting snap oversteer the next. They were school cars (from BMW NA!), and I noticed two IMSA drivers in my group exit the track one lap before I did, which was one lap before the other "students" getting to know the track that day did.
Last 3 Series I tried on the road was an early F30 with a manual and all the sporting options, and it remains maybe the most disappointing/worst car I ever drove on my favored road test loop. Engine sounded bad, shifter was very so-so, chassis was RWD but blah, brakes too...where had my beloved BMW gone? The E90 was much better—in any form so long as it had decent wheels/tires. And maybe even then. I remember being a bit depressed when I realized I'd driven hours and still had hours to go. First world problems for sure, but I knew it was over for me and BMW.
A couple of years later, I tried a 1M again after really liking a press car during a quick romp (20-30 minutes on a decent but not great road) when the cars were new. This time, it was a lot more time on great roads, and have to agree with Groundhog. What was fun on a romp fell apart on a longer drive on great roads. I still like the 1M in a lot of ways, and maybe I'd like the M2 or M2C in similar ways, but BMW has thoroughly lost the plot. Munich's journey to the abysmal E60 5 Series (as well as the X6 and 3GT, 5GT, etc and what has come since) should serve as a cautionary tale for the remaining marques that still build sporting cars—including one we all hold dear. They're advertising $50,000 BMWs for $149/month around here...of course there's a ridiculous first payment, but the message is clear...
And yes, E39 was truly a high point. I like the M5, but love the 528/530i with Sport Package and a manual gearbox. A benchmark sport sedan if there ever was one.
04-20-2019, 11:04 AM
