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stout and bemo -- have you guys driven an M2 or M2C?
Yes, the M2 is more fun than the M3, lively toss-able chassis and decent-for-a-turbo sound but the electric steering is no worse or better than my .1 GTS. I really don't get the efficiency excuse for electric steering given the minuscule fuel savings and preponderance of opportunities to gain improvements elsewhere.
The paranoia about adding rear seats to a GT car is fascinating to me. I mean we are talking about a few brackets and some seat belts. I have replaced the frame in a couple of my vehicles. Welded frames and everything else in others. The air cooled people build cars basically from scratch starting with a rusty shell. The seat belt in my Jeep is being held on by a plate I cut out of scrap when the original rusted through. If it were anything other than a near as makes no difference $200k Porsche people would drill a hole and bolt a universal undermount plate on. In my Jeep I am sure my fix it is better than the original. There is no way to pull a plate that size through the rib and floor, even holding my fat self in, let alone anyone who can fit in the back seat. My 59 rover does not even have seat belts. Maybe I will add them, probably not.
That all being said, I also put about 100 miles on my 993 cab (with back seats) today too and it was so relaxing not to worry about pot holes with 17in wheels and lots of Michelin side walls to soak them up. . Yet somehow the PO scraped the underside of the front bumper even at US ride height! The GT3 is too low IMHO. Maybe I need to get under it and adjust the suspension up. A 991.1 without PASM is about perfect ride height for around here.
And I also get you can turn up the wick on an GTS and get it to more HP than a GT3. But that misses the point in my view. If you want power, get a 997.1 Turbo and really turn up the wick (anyone have a well enjoyed 6MT 997.1 turbo cab in green with natural leather for me when I get dinged for a speedster — I promise go full Ruf to make her sing) or buy a new muscle car or ZR1.
Completely off topic, but this sepia Brown that was for sale for a long while is near perfect (minus the roof and lack of natural leather).
Used to DD a MT 991.2 4S. Amazing car and agree with everything that has been said. Now have a 991.2 GT3 MT and picked up an E39 M5 as a daily anticipating that I wouldn't want to DD the GT3 but having put about 2k miles on the GT3 I totally could DD it. Yes its louder, and less comfy than the 4S but you don't need to have extreme tolerances to use it regularly. If you want the sound / feel / rawness of a GT car just get a GT3. If you want similar enough performance but more comfort is important get a GTS. Its not a performance decision or track / street decision, both can do it all. They just do it with very different personalities.
Ended up keeping the E39 (greatest bmw ever in my biased opinion), just use them 50/50 instead of how I intended.
Ok, you win perfect DD + Sports Car fleet with those two.
stout and bemo -- have you guys driven an M2 or M2C?
Originally Posted by stout
Haven't tried M2 or M2C.
Originally Posted by Bemo
Yes, the M2 is more fun than the M3, lively toss-able chassis and decent-for-a-turbo sound but the electric steering is no worse or better than my .1 GTS.
Funny how many of us here are longtime ///M fans...at least until a few years ago anyway. Many enthusiasts are down on BMW these days -- indeed, it gets a thrashing here on RL on a semi-regular basis. But the M2 does seem to be an exception, a shining star on an otherwise darkening trajectory. I was interested to see that the M2C (with the M4 engine) was not universally viewed as better than the OG M2. Nevertheless, I'm excited to see what the M2 CS will look like and I'm open to it being the model that brings me back, as I haven't pulled the trigger since my e46 and e92 ownership.
Came from an E39 540i M sport, E92 M3 and F82 M4 to a 991.2 GT3. Loved daily driving for 540i because of the manual transmission, but the ongoing maintenance and frequent small oil leaks wore on me. E92 was great on backroads, but the lack of low end torque ruined it for me. M4 was a beast, particularly with a tune, but wasn’t well sorted out - needed multiple software tweaks / updates to improve the suspension / transmission and power delivery (diff, traction control settings), couldn’t put power down, and the interior build quality was frustrating (tons of squeaks, from every area). Miss the bmws of the 90s / early 00s, where they were setup from the factory, not with 3 settings for endless adjustability, but I guess the same can be said about nearly every modern car. GT3 is perfect for me, particularly with sharkwerks bypass for improved sound. I haven’t driven the GTS but drove the Turbo at the Porsche experience center and was really impressed with it as a do-everything car. Hard to go wrong with any 911...
Originally Posted by FORENN
Funny how many of us here are longtime ///M fans...at least until a few years ago anyway. Many enthusiasts are down on BMW these days -- indeed, it gets a thrashing here on RL on a semi-regular basis. But the M2 does seem to be an exception, a shining star on an otherwise darkening trajectory. I was interested to see that the M2C (with the M4 engine) was not universally viewed as better than the OG M2. Nevertheless, I'm excited to see what the M2 CS will look like and I'm open to it being the model that brings me back, as I haven't pulled the trigger since my e46 and e92 ownership.
Stout,The paranoia about adding rear seats to a GT car is fascinating to me. I mean we are talking about a few brackets and some seat belts. I have replaced the frame in a couple of my vehicles. Welded frames and everything else in others. The air cooled people build cars basically from scratch starting with a rusty shell. The seat belt in my Jeep is being held on by a plate I cut out of scrap when the original rusted through. If it were anything other than a near as makes no difference $200k Porsche people would drill a hole and bolt a universal undermount plate on. In my Jeep I am sure my fix it is better than the original. There is no way to pull a plate that size through the rib and floor, even holding my fat self in, let alone anyone who can fit in the back seat. My 59 rover does not even have seat belts. Maybe I will add them, probably not.
No paranoia here, and I don't mind modding old cars. Never have. I'm more conservative when it comes to new cars, particularly expensive ones. If cost was no object, might be a different story—but I'd have some questions to work through before adding back seats to a GT3 Touring (which would create my personal dream 911). First among them would be to confirm whether the 991 GTx cars get thinner metal under the rear seats, and whether all the necessary anchors are in place or have to be added—and if they do, are the bonded or welded, and do they have to be done across two metals, etc. Problems like that made adding a cage to a 981 GT4 after the fact a non-starter from what I heard, mainly due to the techniques required as well as fuel lines nearby, etc. Gets into a "how much is it worth?" And while I've never needed it (knocking on wood now), I don't like to compromise crash safety. Especially if I am going to put someone else in harm's way. This is the biggest reason I got rid of my Abarth. Loved the car, but would never have been able to live with myself if my daughter (or one of her friends) got hurt if someone rear-ended me. I know that's a threshold thing, but the Abarth had effectively no crumple zone for people in the back.
Next up would be tire safety. This is, apparently, the reason for no rear seats in a GT3. German law would require the tires to be certified for the weight with two full-sized passengers back there at top speed (a total non-issue for me in the U.S., but a problem for a manufacturer), and I'd want to look into what tires are certified for, say, the back of a 991.2 Turbo. If the Cup 2s aren't, I wouldn't be bummed to run P4S on a GT3 Touring in Europe, and probably would run Cup 2s here. But I'd want to sort through all this.
That is, if money wasn't an object. A GT3 Touring is +$20,000 to +$40,000 over a Carrera 7MT the way I'd want it, hard to get, harder to get in PTS, and requires a lot of work to get to the same level of utility the Carrera offers out of the box—and will never offer the breadth of ability in terms of, well, touring. I really like the 991.2 Carrera 7MT—which remains underrated—for its mix of 60% usability vs 40% fun when you want it. Feel like the current GT3 flips those figures. For me, at least. Both are amazing....we are spoiled right about now.
Originally Posted by evilfij
That all being said, I also put about 100 miles on my 993 cab (with back seats) today too and it was so relaxing not to worry about pot holes with 17in wheels and lots of Michelin side walls to soak them up. . Yet somehow the PO scraped the underside of the front bumper even at US ride height! The GT3 is too low IMHO. Maybe I need to get under it and adjust the suspension up. A 991.1 without PASM is about perfect ride height for around here.
997.1 Carrera 6MT with 18s and no PASM is one of my faves from this perspective. Just something great about those cars. You don't catch it in a quick test drive...the satisfaction comes in time. Still get stirred every time I see one, which isn't often, and sometimes wonder if I'd like my 991.2 on 19s better than 20s...but I wanted PCCB.
Originally Posted by evilfij
And I also get you can turn up the wick on an GTS and get it to more HP than a GT3. But that misses the point in my view.
Feel you on that.
Originally Posted by evilfij
Completely off topic, but this sepia Brown that was for sale for a long while is near perfect (minus the roof and lack of natural leather).
I like 997.1 Turbos with some minor mods, and I do like a brown 911, but have never been able to get into Sepia. Not sure what it is, but Bruce Anderson called this shade "Sale-proof Brown."
Have I mentioned lately that I'm looking for a rear GT3 carpet set?
I might be willing to trade my rear seats that are full Black leather for the right deal. My seat belts are Red. Shipping the rear seats would not be easy. It might need to be done in the Chicago or Orlando area (we are retired and now migratory snowbirds).
Funny how many of us here are longtime ///M fans...at least until a few years ago anyway. Many enthusiasts are down on BMW these days -- indeed, it gets a thrashing here on RL on a semi-regular basis. But the M2 does seem to be an exception, a shining star on an otherwise darkening trajectory. I was interested to see that the M2C (with the M4 engine) was not universally viewed as better than the OG M2. Nevertheless, I'm excited to see what the M2 CS will look like and I'm open to it being the model that brings me back, as I haven't pulled the trigger since my e46 and e92 ownership.
Thrashing newer M's is fully warranted given the awful direction that the company is taking.
Handling, looks and sounds are total poop.
That said I paid new M money last year, to secure a 5yr old E92 Limerock Edition...not even the 991.1 GTS could dissuade me from it!
So the, old, magic is still alive with the M2 having some limited potential. BMW can still reverse course, it's not too late.
In the meantime I need to stop thinking about a GT3 and focus more on driving the GTS. But that's what a sick automotive mind does and this forum doesn't help matters one bit!
Have I mentioned lately that I'm looking for a rear GT3 carpet set?
I might be willing to trade my rear seats that are full Black leather for the right deal. My seat belts are Red. Shipping the rear seats would not be easy. It might need to be done in the Chicago or Orlando area (we are retired and now migratory snowbirds).
Shipping 991 rear seats would be easy compared to shipping any front seats—I suspect you will be shocked by how small and light the four pieces are. I bet the box could be pretty small. The harder part will be the carpeting setup(s) from back there—but these too will likely be quite light. It's just gonna be a fairly big box...that can be used both directions?
I suspect if you put an "WTT" ad up here on RL, you might find a trader. Seatbelts wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, as they can likely be sold to offset the cost of black (or whatever) belts for back there.
Came from an E39 540i M sport, E92 M3 and F82 M4 to a 991.2 GT3. Loved daily driving for 540i because of the manual transmission, but the ongoing maintenance and frequent small oil leaks wore on me. E92 was great on backroads, but the lack of low end torque ruined it for me. M4 was a beast, particularly with a tune, but wasn’t well sorted out - needed multiple software tweaks / updates to improve the suspension / transmission and power delivery (diff, traction control settings), couldn’t put power down, and the interior build quality was frustrating (tons of squeaks, from every area). Miss the bmws of the 90s / early 00s, where they were setup from the factory, not with 3 settings for endless adjustability, but I guess the same can be said about nearly every modern car. GT3 is perfect for me, particularly with sharkwerks bypass for improved sound. I haven’t driven the GTS but drove the Turbo at the Porsche experience center and was really impressed with it as a do-everything car. Hard to go wrong with any 911...
I agree, the M4 is a beast, but I do hear various complaints, even on BP among M4 owners. And I agree, the e92 M3 needs open roads to be enjoyed -- the S65 needs to be revved out to get going and make it sing.
Originally Posted by Bemo
Thrashing newer M's is fully warranted given the awful direction that the company is taking.
Handling, looks and sounds are total poop.
That said I paid new M money last year, to secure a 5yr old E92 Limerock Edition...not even the 991.1 GTS could dissuade me from it!
So the, old, magic is still alive with the M2 having some limited potential. BMW can still reverse course, it's not too late.
In the meantime I need to stop thinking about a GT3 and focus more on driving the GTS. But that's what a sick automotive mind does and this forum doesn't help matters one bit!
I think the thrashing is somewhat deserved but somewhat over the top and although I didn't pull the trigger on the M4, I think it's underrated, especially if you're paying pre-owned pricing -- a lot of car for the money. Completely disagree with you on looks - the M4 is a stunner in person. The sound is really what has held me back. It is hard to be used to GT3 sound (or heck, even my Carrera T sound) and then go M4 sound. I do miss my second and last e92 M3 and if I had it to do over again, I'd have found room to keep it. Congrats on the Lime Rock, I hope you were able to avoid EAG's outlandish pricing. Fire orange is a brilliant color.
The paranoia about adding rear seats to a GT car is fascinating to me. I mean we are talking about a few brackets and some seat belts. I have replaced the frame in a couple of my vehicles. Welded frames and everything else in others. The air cooled people build cars basically from scratch starting with a rusty shell. The seat belt in my Jeep is being held on by a plate I cut out of scrap when the original rusted through. If it were anything other than a near as makes no difference $200k Porsche people would drill a hole and bolt a universal undermount plate on. In my Jeep I am sure my fix it is better than the original. There is no way to pull a plate that size through the rib and floor, even holding my fat self in, let alone anyone who can fit in the back seat. My 59 rover does not even have seat belts. Maybe I will add them, probably not.
That all being said, I also put about 100 miles on my 993 cab (with back seats) today too and it was so relaxing not to worry about pot holes with 17in wheels and lots of Michelin side walls to soak them up. . Yet somehow the PO scraped the underside of the front bumper even at US ride height! The GT3 is too low IMHO. Maybe I need to get under it and adjust the suspension up. A 991.1 without PASM is about perfect ride height for around here.
And I also get you can turn up the wick on an GTS and get it to more HP than a GT3. But that misses the point in my view. If you want power, get a 997.1 Turbo and really turn up the wick (anyone have a well enjoyed 6MT 997.1 turbo cab in green with natural leather for me when I get dinged for a speedster — I promise go full Ruf to make her sing) or buy a new muscle car or ZR1.
Completely off topic, but this sepia Brown that was for sale for a long while is near perfect (minus the roof and lack of natural leather).
Was at main line Saturday and saw that, was wondering about that and the Defender 110 next to it. Was thinking about taking the red GT3T out. Sorry for topic hijack.
Though I think a GT3T light (GTS with GT3 engine) would be a hell of a car!
Completely disagree with you on looks - the M4 is a stunner in person.
Actually agree here, but for the M3. Every time I see one in gray (I know, I know), I dig it. I think it's a very good looking four-door—with the M4 not far behind (for me). Just wish they were a better drive.
04-21-2019, 11:09 PM
. Yet somehow the PO scraped the underside of the front bumper even at US ride height! The GT3 is too low IMHO. Maybe I need to get under it and adjust the suspension up. A 991.1 without PASM is about perfect ride height for around here. 
