Is the GTS noticeably more comfortable then GT3
04-19-2019, 04:33 PM
#61
04-19-2019, 04:59 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
I have owned a 991.1 S, 991.1 GTS, 991.1 GT3
GT3 is a car almost every 911 owner lusts after and it's a good idea to get one at some point to experience it but in reality, for most, that are looking for that balanced sports and daily to semi-daily, weekender, GTS hands down is your best option out there. GT3 is a true race car, its not just about the car being comfortable in terms of suspension, there is a lot more to it. Unlike the GTS, when you first get into a GT3, you will notice that the car doesn't immediately warm up so brakes, suspension, transmission, tires... specially in colder temps take a good 15 mins or so after driving to really warm up, brakes specially have no bite at the beginning. The exhaust, at least on the 991.1 GT3, was super quiet unless you were pushing it past 5K RPM, and that's where really you start enjoying the car, you really have to be pushing it to red line to experience what a GT3 can do....and how many people really do that everyday unless you are on a track? in contrast with a GTS, within a few mins you are good to go and you can enjoy the car even at lower RPMs. A lot of people that I see that buy the GT3, end up selling it after a year or so of ownership specially if they previously owned a 911, because they really can't enjoy the car, and since it keeps it's value really well, it's like why not, lets try it...just look at the 991.2 GT3 used market, it's like 80% of people just got it to drive it for a few months to experience it knowing that they couldn't own it long term.
GT3 is a car almost every 911 owner lusts after and it's a good idea to get one at some point to experience it but in reality, for most, that are looking for that balanced sports and daily to semi-daily, weekender, GTS hands down is your best option out there. GT3 is a true race car, its not just about the car being comfortable in terms of suspension, there is a lot more to it. Unlike the GTS, when you first get into a GT3, you will notice that the car doesn't immediately warm up so brakes, suspension, transmission, tires... specially in colder temps take a good 15 mins or so after driving to really warm up, brakes specially have no bite at the beginning. The exhaust, at least on the 991.1 GT3, was super quiet unless you were pushing it past 5K RPM, and that's where really you start enjoying the car, you really have to be pushing it to red line to experience what a GT3 can do....and how many people really do that everyday unless you are on a track? in contrast with a GTS, within a few mins you are good to go and you can enjoy the car even at lower RPMs. A lot of people that I see that buy the GT3, end up selling it after a year or so of ownership specially if they previously owned a 911, because they really can't enjoy the car, and since it keeps it's value really well, it's like why not, lets try it...just look at the 991.2 GT3 used market, it's like 80% of people just got it to drive it for a few months to experience it knowing that they couldn't own it long term.
spot on as an ex-GT3 owner except I still took a fair loss on mine (but I wanted a quick sale with realistic pricing)
If you can have the GT3 as a fun car in your garage, a 2nd or 3rd sports car, IMO its a must have. If it's your only 911, or your only sports car/fun car, I personally found it wasn't versatile/diverse enough for my tastes. It just wants to be north of 5k RPM on the track or canyons to really squeeze juice out of it, otherwise it just felt like a slightly stiffer more showy 911 that wasn't as comfortable to drive around town in. Mine was PDK so MT can help in the enjoyment factor around town and at lower speeds/RPMs
If you can have the GT3 as a fun car in your garage, a 2nd or 3rd sports car, IMO its a must have. If it's your only 911, or your only sports car/fun car, I personally found it wasn't versatile/diverse enough for my tastes. It just wants to be north of 5k RPM on the track or canyons to really squeeze juice out of it, otherwise it just felt like a slightly stiffer more showy 911 that wasn't as comfortable to drive around town in. Mine was PDK so MT can help in the enjoyment factor around town and at lower speeds/RPMs
I don't know about everyone lusting after a GT3 (they make so many of them now I think pretty much everyone who wants one has one) but I know my fantasy was killed when I tried to daily drive it. For the track, it's sweet. For the road, I'll take a Carrera (my preference is a T but GTS is also great) every day of the week.
Mrs. Stout just moved from a Volvo to a CX-5 and loves loves loves it. (She, much to my chagrin, hates the smell of modern Porsche interiors...something about a chemical or adhesive they are using. CX-5 is also reordering our view of pricing for features...just an incredible value with very, very good ride/handling for its intended purpose. Not as good as Macan, or anywhere near as fast, but many miles ahead of many CUV/SUV/crossovers. You can tell someone who cared set it up.)
04-19-2019, 11:47 PM
#65
Mrs. Stout just moved from a Volvo to a CX-5 and loves loves loves it. (She, much to my chagrin, hates the smell of modern Porsche interiors...something about a chemical or adhesive they are using. CX-5 is also reordering our view of pricing for features...just an incredible value with very, very good ride/handling for its intended purpose. Not as good as Macan, or anywhere near as fast, but many miles ahead of many CUV/SUV/crossovers. You can tell someone who cared set it up.)
04-19-2019, 11:55 PM
#66
Trust me. That’s not intended to be a dig. The GTS felt very coddling to me, not in a “floaty sedan” way, but in a sort of “serene but brutal rocket ship that handles like a scalpel” type of way. It’s hard to explain. Two things contributed to that: turbo lag down low, and a soft exhaust sound at every RPM, upshifts and especially downshifts. My base .1 felt “rough” and rudimentary in almost every way when I got back in it (first time it ever felt “slow” for several minutes as well). The engine barks and screams and sounds metallically mechanical. Is that supposed to be talking up my car? Well, technically speaking it’s not, and Porsche would totally agree as they go through great lengths to make their 911’s more refined AND faster. It just happens to meet my criteria in the sound and throttle response/ascending power curve department (the only things I prefer over the .2 GTS).
The power delivery is vicious on the 9A2 indeed, I drove that GTS hard and got the rear out several times, drove in a way I could never my car, but power isn’t my point at all here, I was speaking on soulfulness which I find the 9A2 lacks. I don’t revere the GT3 because it’s fast, as the GTS is nearly as fast on public roads. But emotively there’s no contest. I couldn’t care less which one of these cars is faster. When I drove and reviewed a 991.2 base I said I felt it reminded me of a shrunken, faster Macan, something a poster here who has a .2 admitted he echoed on his first test drive, and something Motor Trend similarly echoed when they said a 991.1 Turbo felt like a “faster, shrunken Cayenne.”
The power race is simply one I’m not interested in. I’m not kidding when I say the .2 GTS would get me in trouble. I don’t know how you guys don’t fish the rear out constantly and go nuts, it’s so fun to do so (similar with the 718 S which I had for a week). I don’t even want .2 GTS power. A sound I more enjoy is worth the power sacrifice to me when we’re talking cars that already run 12’s and under (that’d change if I tracked I’m sure). What I’m more jealous of is the amazing handling, composure and balance of the GTS.
The 991.2 GTS is probably the best fundamental sports car I’ve driven, minus maybe the low end lag. But for $150K+ (what the one I drove costed) personally, I’d crave the more quirky sense of occasion of the GT3. But that’s also because I don’t DD my 911.
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Finally, when I say I believe the 9A1 (pick one) is the most impressive modern motor Porsche has built, I’m using my own criteria for that: More dependable than a GT3. More soulful than a 9A2, and insanely fast for a “run of the mill” N/A motor. One of the fastest N/A cars of all time. And they ‘only’ trap about 3-4 MPH less than equivalent 9A2’s which is remarkable for N/A cars (I know, acceleration times certainly have a more considerable gap). And PERSONALLY, I think the 9A1’s are the best sounding modern Porsche engines, period. It’s an intoxicating sound to me. Kind of old school meets new school. Perhaps even better than the GT3’s under 4-5K RPM’s (GT3 owns everything over 5K). I might like the 3.4 a bit more than the 3.8 even. They’re not as fast as the .2’s, not as soulful as the GT3’s, but *imo* sort of a perfect middle ground.
Hopefully that clears it up. I definitely have a prejudice against turbo cars. I feel everyyyything these days is a 3.0 turbo with the same flat torque curve from 1K RPM’s. It’s great, and you can’t deny the performance and efficiency (the latter why Porsche said they had to move to them in the first place) but I just long for variety again. At least the 9A2 is a flat six though which will always put it in its own spectrum vs other 3.0 6’s.
The power delivery is vicious on the 9A2 indeed, I drove that GTS hard and got the rear out several times, drove in a way I could never my car, but power isn’t my point at all here, I was speaking on soulfulness which I find the 9A2 lacks. I don’t revere the GT3 because it’s fast, as the GTS is nearly as fast on public roads. But emotively there’s no contest. I couldn’t care less which one of these cars is faster. When I drove and reviewed a 991.2 base I said I felt it reminded me of a shrunken, faster Macan, something a poster here who has a .2 admitted he echoed on his first test drive, and something Motor Trend similarly echoed when they said a 991.1 Turbo felt like a “faster, shrunken Cayenne.”
The power race is simply one I’m not interested in. I’m not kidding when I say the .2 GTS would get me in trouble. I don’t know how you guys don’t fish the rear out constantly and go nuts, it’s so fun to do so (similar with the 718 S which I had for a week). I don’t even want .2 GTS power. A sound I more enjoy is worth the power sacrifice to me when we’re talking cars that already run 12’s and under (that’d change if I tracked I’m sure). What I’m more jealous of is the amazing handling, composure and balance of the GTS.
The 991.2 GTS is probably the best fundamental sports car I’ve driven, minus maybe the low end lag. But for $150K+ (what the one I drove costed) personally, I’d crave the more quirky sense of occasion of the GT3. But that’s also because I don’t DD my 911.
——————
Finally, when I say I believe the 9A1 (pick one) is the most impressive modern motor Porsche has built, I’m using my own criteria for that: More dependable than a GT3. More soulful than a 9A2, and insanely fast for a “run of the mill” N/A motor. One of the fastest N/A cars of all time. And they ‘only’ trap about 3-4 MPH less than equivalent 9A2’s which is remarkable for N/A cars (I know, acceleration times certainly have a more considerable gap). And PERSONALLY, I think the 9A1’s are the best sounding modern Porsche engines, period. It’s an intoxicating sound to me. Kind of old school meets new school. Perhaps even better than the GT3’s under 4-5K RPM’s (GT3 owns everything over 5K). I might like the 3.4 a bit more than the 3.8 even. They’re not as fast as the .2’s, not as soulful as the GT3’s, but *imo* sort of a perfect middle ground.
Hopefully that clears it up. I definitely have a prejudice against turbo cars. I feel everyyyything these days is a 3.0 turbo with the same flat torque curve from 1K RPM’s. It’s great, and you can’t deny the performance and efficiency (the latter why Porsche said they had to move to them in the first place) but I just long for variety again. At least the 9A2 is a flat six though which will always put it in its own spectrum vs other 3.0 6’s.
^ A lot of good perspective here. the .1 GTS 3.8 is a wonderful engine in the upper reaches, and of course the GT3 engine is a beast, but the 3.0 remains seriously underrated. I truly think it's one of Porsche's best engines of the modern era...the just happens to the product of legislation that was pretty scary to car people. Sometimes, life works out that way. Nice when it does...
I didn't know you moved your GT3 on—speaks volumes. Maybe I am not crazy...but this is how I've felt since first driving the 991.2 Carrera in Tenerife. It just blew me away on so many levels, as no base Carrera had in a very long time. If ever
I didn't know you moved your GT3 on—speaks volumes. Maybe I am not crazy...but this is how I've felt since first driving the 991.2 Carrera in Tenerife. It just blew me away on so many levels, as no base Carrera had in a very long time. If ever
04-20-2019, 12:47 AM
#67
yeah, that is totally fair. and you are not alone by any means, many love NA/prefer it over turbo. I just like to speak up for the turbo crowd because when I remove the NA bias I actually find the engines equal, with different pros and cons having both in the garage right now. Really enjoy and appreciate both in their own ways. sound on the 3.0 with the PSE at cold start is something awesome. anything is better than pure electric and autonomous driving from an enthusiast standpoint, so I am celebrating both while they are still around and for as long as I can
yep loved her but I was just kind of stressed trying to reach north of 5k RPM while driving in the safest manner possible since I don't track. some days it was amazing like on PCH/Malibu stuff/ACH, and some days it just wasn't quite ideal like driving around in LA
yep loved her but I was just kind of stressed trying to reach north of 5k RPM while driving in the safest manner possible since I don't track. some days it was amazing like on PCH/Malibu stuff/ACH, and some days it just wasn't quite ideal like driving around in LA
04-20-2019, 01:09 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
^ I hear ya, K-A, and have always liked the NA 3.4s from Porsche—whether in 996.1, 987.1, 987.2, etc. form. They sound great, and have a really nice power band if you are game to wind them out.
One silver lining in all of the movement toward turbo engines of late is that the results are in and regulatory bodies have figured out that they're good at passing standardized tests but not necessarily better than NA when it comes to total efficiency and emissions in real use. In other words, when turbos blow, turbos drink. Will be interesting to see if we'll start to see a movement back towards NA engines, or if the electrification movement will distract those writing policy and business plans. Whatever the case, I am not sure the future looks like we are told it does...
One silver lining in all of the movement toward turbo engines of late is that the results are in and regulatory bodies have figured out that they're good at passing standardized tests but not necessarily better than NA when it comes to total efficiency and emissions in real use. In other words, when turbos blow, turbos drink. Will be interesting to see if we'll start to see a movement back towards NA engines, or if the electrification movement will distract those writing policy and business plans. Whatever the case, I am not sure the future looks like we are told it does...
04-20-2019, 04:18 AM
#69
^ I hear ya, K-A, and have always liked the NA 3.4s from Porsche—whether in 996.1, 987.1, 987.2, etc. form. They sound great, and have a really nice power band if you are game to wind them out.
One silver lining in all of the movement toward turbo engines of late is that the results are in and regulatory bodies have figured out that they're good at passing standardized tests but not necessarily better than NA when it comes to total efficiency and emissions in real use. In other words, when turbos blow, turbos drink. Will be interesting to see if we'll start to see a movement back towards NA engines, or if the electrification movement will distract those writing policy and business plans. Whatever the case, I am not sure the future looks like we are told it does...
One silver lining in all of the movement toward turbo engines of late is that the results are in and regulatory bodies have figured out that they're good at passing standardized tests but not necessarily better than NA when it comes to total efficiency and emissions in real use. In other words, when turbos blow, turbos drink. Will be interesting to see if we'll start to see a movement back towards NA engines, or if the electrification movement will distract those writing policy and business plans. Whatever the case, I am not sure the future looks like we are told it does...
Yeah, the 3.4 is a sweet motor, and that's a nice testament towards it coming from you. I enjoy it, and you can wind out a gear or two without going into insanity territory (try that in a GT3.... lol). It's a motor that really shines in a lighter car, as it has a light and revvy feel to it. I think the HRE's on my car being a decent bit lighter than stock really make a good difference as it just feels very eager and sprightly and gets out of the hole pretty quickly.
04-20-2019, 05:01 AM
#70
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
You can still get NA, you just have to pay (ie GT cars). Given how expensive typical GTS builds are, and the fact that GT3 ADMs are pretty much gone, the spread is not that big. A like for like (adding RWS to the GTS) a GT3 is only ~$20k MSRP more than a GTS 2wd coupe.
Say what you will about the 3.4 (or the 3.0 turbo), but the 4.0 in the GT3 and GT3RS may be peak Porsche NA now that the speedster and going forward euro GT3RS builds have a particulate filter. Everyone is stoked about the ITBs on the speedster, but I would much rather have no OPF (aka GPF) than ITB. And we all know OPF is already on euro 991.2 now and undoubtedly will be on 992 as well. Maybe it does not matter much new (few hp down a not quite as good sound), but I am concerned for long term reliability (the same can be said about the now ubiquitous turbo engines as well).
Say what you will about the 3.4 (or the 3.0 turbo), but the 4.0 in the GT3 and GT3RS may be peak Porsche NA now that the speedster and going forward euro GT3RS builds have a particulate filter. Everyone is stoked about the ITBs on the speedster, but I would much rather have no OPF (aka GPF) than ITB. And we all know OPF is already on euro 991.2 now and undoubtedly will be on 992 as well. Maybe it does not matter much new (few hp down a not quite as good sound), but I am concerned for long term reliability (the same can be said about the now ubiquitous turbo engines as well).
04-20-2019, 06:01 AM
#71
A GTS coupe with PCCB, RAS, Buckets and lightweight wheels is similar fast comparing to a GT3?
No sunroof, no FAL, no cameras etc. Just minimum specs as a GT car.
If so then the decision is only related to 2 or 4 seats and NA or Turbo.
No sunroof, no FAL, no cameras etc. Just minimum specs as a GT car.
If so then the decision is only related to 2 or 4 seats and NA or Turbo.
04-20-2019, 10:04 AM
#72
Double post
Last edited by Bobby 911; 04-29-2019 at 05:24 PM.
04-20-2019, 10:06 AM
#73
double post
Last edited by Bobby 911; 04-29-2019 at 05:24 PM.
04-20-2019, 11:01 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Wife's car was in the shop yesterday for some paint correction - so she had my DD Cayenne and I had the Carrera T - did 110 miles all over Houston (surface streets, traffic, parking lots - the whole 9 yards) over about 6 hours. In normal mode, the car is essentially the same as the Cayenne and very easy to live with as a DD.
And I was able to turn the dial to Sport + when I hit a few nice spots :-)
I think the Carrera line is sublime - particularly with the Sport Chrono ability to just dial up a few miles of "extra" :-)
cheers!
And I was able to turn the dial to Sport + when I hit a few nice spots :-)
I think the Carrera line is sublime - particularly with the Sport Chrono ability to just dial up a few miles of "extra" :-)
cheers!