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For the record all Cobb stage to calibrations are designed for an exhaust system and not manifolds. That would come down to the custom tuning. The manifolds should shine on their own but as you push the car the benefits will increase this can only be tested bit by bit. There’s not going to be a night and day difference here let’s be real. That’s another thing that’s interesting for anyone to think that there would be unless one manifold is completely *** backwards and makes more power than factory. Skews my French LOL. It will be close but there will be many factors to consider. Manufacturing pedigree, Porsche experience, ground clearance, sound, warranty and guarantee and so on. But I keep saying it and I will say it again. Variety is the spice of life. Competition is good as long as everyone is treated sure they’re the right way and the public doesn’t get any type of misinformation to lead the community in the wrong direction.
To that I say BS. Because the headers weren't designed or tested with a stage 2 tune, it didn't exist. They dont advertise it as better performing "only with a stage 2 tune", they advertise it as a 19hp gain on a STOCK car with a STOCK tune. So, if they dont perform better now, they basically lied their way into our lives.
Actually, Vektor didn't claim that hp gain. MotoIQ tested the product and got that HP gain. And you shouldn't really use absolute hp numbers but % gain because different dynos read different numbers. In the MotoIQ test, they measured a peak gain of 387/368, so ~5.1%. I would also point out that the dyno MotoIQ used, at World Motorsport, SamboTT has used too.
The two independent dynos I'm aware of for the Vektor headers are the MotoIQ test and the guy in Brazil. MotoIQ test setup = World Motorsport wind tunnel dyno with fans blowing into each intercooler on Carrera S with stock tune. The guy in Brazil setup = I THINK was a Carrera S, had a custom tune and a single fan on the front of the car with NO fans blowing into the ICs. Yeah, those differences will cause the dynos to look differently.
If you want to talk about cost differences, we can look at the product differences. Vektor = cast merge, 321SS, had finishing. Kline = fabricated merge, 304SS, unknown on how much hand finishing. The tooling for those cast merges is probably in the ballpark of $50k-$75k. So yeah, those drive up the costs as it'll take time to pay back that tooling costs. 321SS is a better material than 304SS in high temperature applications such as headers on turbocharged cars and it costs more. The labor for hand finishing cost money and you can see in the pictures where the Vektor headers have had manual labor. I haven't seen that in the Kline headers. Another thing, Vektor provides OEM replacement gaskets whereas Kline provides cheaper more generic gaskets per your pictures. So there are your cost drivers.
As far as being your first or second choice, we have gone down this road before. You are the buyer that buys the most expensive part and I am the guy that buys the most proven part.
Really, You buy the most proven parts?......Like SOUL cats? How long have they been in the market? Are they the most proven cats or the cheapest?
You know I love these arguments. I wake up and read them and get amped up for the day.
Lets start with you Vektor.
True, anyone can buy your product, but NO ONE can return it if it isnt effective. Please refute this because I have about 50 posts I can reference supporting this.
So, if you make claims of 19hp gains (yes, you did and I will address that) and refuse to accept a return of the product if doesnt make gains EVEN CLOSE to that number, then what good is the product or company?
No one has questioned the dyno used, at least I haven't, so the dyno isnt the problem. The problem is that Vektor as a company has no experience with Porsche (not Subaru), they make claims about the effectiveness and superiority of their design over all others, they repost dyno charts and support HP gains, BUT when independent 911 owners, performance shops or Porsche Forums ask for a refund for their EXORBITANTLY priced headers If they do not perform even close to what has been advertised, the company refuses. Is that factual or being dragged through the mud?
Spdracerut: If a part is hand made of gold and takes 30 days to fabricate with hundreds of hours of hand polishing and performs identically or WORSE than one made with "inferior" materials by machine.. Is it worth more?
Certainly, it costs more to make and as a result the manufacturer can charge more. But, if it performs the same or worse is it WORTH more? The answer to me is clearly NO. It has NO value to me if it cant do what it was designed to do even if it is made at NASA and has platinum tubing. The bottom line is if the Vektor headers cannot improve upon other designs by other manufacturers using "inferior" materials and craftsmanship then it isnt worth as much as the competitors products and certainly should not command a 50% premium above all others. Its America, you can ask any price you want and there will always be the A-Holes that will buy a diamond encrusted iPhone case or a $10,000 app because they want to show off or tell people "look what I got" but, that isnt the majority of intelligent buyers, it is the minority of insecure morons with more money than sense. If the company had confidence in their product and claims then they should allow independent testing and agree to accept the part if it sucks. MotoIq is a PAID infomercial site. They have NO negative reviews, NOT ONE. So, if readers cannot figure this out and understand that its essentially a social medial advertising platform, then they will learn the hard way. Owners and enthusiasts are the reviews I love the most, which is why I make my own. I am not paid, I receive no compensation and all of the wear and tear, labor to install and uninstall and dyno costs are paid for by ME. I do it for the community because so many 200k Porsche owners don't and I feel it's important for all of us to know.
4 point 0: "Really, You buy the most proven parts?......Like SOUL cats? How long have they been in the market? Are they the most proven cats or the cheapest?"
In case you are unaware, EVERYBODY with the exception of Akrapovic, uses the same HJS cores. So, if you want a $10,000 cat or a $500 cat, the core is Identical.
We again go back to the A-hole theory to which you subscribe. YOU can pay $5000 for a titanium, hand crafted cat that uses the same HJS core as Soul does and will get IDENTICAL performance. I will not.
It is not a part that can be seen and the performance gains are identical. So, in this case, the HJS cores are BY FAR the most proven manufacturer and cat core design on earth and thats why I chose Soul.
They are also a real company with a real facility, not an Instagram account out of some guys back yard. They also support this forum as a sponsor, so you shouldn't Sh--T on them because they do more for this community and this forum than Vektor ever did.
How long has Soul been in the market? Glad you asked. FAR longer than Vektor has and HJS has been doing this for over a decade.
PTS-BRG, you make some good points. I think I'll be looking for a Kline Exhaust headers and some kind of cats for my new 991.2 C2S. I'm already strung out a bit after adding tint, PPF, and X51 PowerKit. So I'm going to see if I can find a used setup.
There was a complete Kline used setup that popped up on the rennlist market about 3 days after I ordered my new setup. Thats how it usually works for me. Its still up for sale on the marketplace here.
The same seller is also listed on ebay, Asking $4950 I think for a system worth about $8,000 or more. Thats a great deal and Im sure you can haggle a little bit too..
There was a complete Kline used setup that popped up on the rennlist market about 3 days after I ordered my new setup. Thats how it usually works for me. Its still up for sale on the marketplace here.
The same seller is also listed on ebay, Asking $4950 I think for a system worth about $8,000 or more. Thats a great deal and Im sure you can haggle a little bit too..
The Kline catted stainless system can be had for under 6k through most vendors.
Also, just to clarify SOUL uses the smallest HJS diameter core of any of the large manufacturers (AWE, Fabspeed, SpeedTech)
Thanks for posting your review, I look forward to seeing your dynes and comparison!
Being the largest dealer/distributor for Kline Innovation and personal friends I’m here to help anyone with any questions or customer support they have at any time. We also have some specials going on and I would be glad to take care of you gentlemen including my full guarantee. If you just take a look online or even simply Google for example By Design, Kline, Porsche you’ll get slammed with nothing but positive stuff and some serious pedigree/testing. We even ran our By Design Stage 4 Porsche 991 Turbo in the Pike’s Peak Hillclimb driven by David Donahue himself and supported by Porsche. Talk about putting our system including the manifolds to the test. On this car it’s actually just about the same exact shape and design just different diameter four big brother TTS. Proven and 100% handmade in Europe. There are countless videos, Dyno charts and awesome shots of these things glowing almost transparent hot with and without the coating. Good times! We’re here for you and bring a lot of support to the table. Exotic cars, especially Porsche is what we do for over 20 years with a solid track record! Cheers!
You know I love these arguments. I wake up and read them and get amped up for the day.
4 point 0: "Really, You buy the most proven parts?......Like SOUL cats? How long have they been in the market? Are they the most proven cats or the cheapest?"
In case you are unaware, EVERYBODY with the exception of Akrapovic, uses the same HJS cores. So, if you want a $10,000 cat or a $500 cat, the core is Identical.
We again go back to the A-hole theory to which you subscribe. YOU can pay $5000 for a titanium, hand crafted cat that uses the same HJS core as Soul does and will get IDENTICAL performance. I will not.
It is not a part that can be seen and the performance gains are identical. So, in this case, the HJS cores are BY FAR the most proven manufacturer and cat core design on earth and thats why I chose Soul.
They are also a real company with a real facility, not an Instagram account out of some guys back yard. They also support this forum as a sponsor, so you shouldn't Sh--T on them because they do more for this community and this forum than Vektor ever did.
How long has Soul been in the market? Glad you asked. FAR longer than Vektor has and HJS has been doing this for over a decade.
So in your mind a boxster is EXACTLY the same as a GT2-RS? Because both are made by Porsche, they must be EXACTLY the same. You are cluless. HJS make a huge range of Cores from cheap crappy ones to much more expensive High end ones. Keep believing that the Cheap ones are identical to the high end ones. I have had experience with cheap metallic cats that lost power on the dyno. So I made some calls and spoke to them.
Different models in the HJS range produce different results. You are such a Blow Hard. When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. And I suppose we should buy the cheapest Brembo brakes too because they are all EXACTLY the same?
Basic: If you look into the dyno charts provided by Vektor owners, you will see that they are vastly different from one another. Something is fishy with the testing.
Vektor had no skin in the game allowing me or BGB Motorsports to do independent testing. No discounts, full retail. All they had to show was "similar" results. THEY REFUSED.
No false claims here. Those are the facts. Another website also asked to test Vektor in a shoot out. THEY REFUSED HIM TOO.
Can you link me to the guy on Insta with the before and after? In fact, post it here in this thread to see.
and the image attached. I had a brief convo with him regarding the charts before pulling the trigger on the vektor headers
"You are absolutely NOT buying from the most proven product when the company does not provide a single number and there's zero information you can find on the internet"
Did I ever say I was buying the most proven product? Can you cut and paste where I said that? Who is flipping the facts around? Post where I said that.
In the post right before my post
What I did say is that I am buying the part from a company that has been doing this longer than the others. 5 times Longer than Vektor. Far longer than Fabspeed too.
Kline has been making performance exhaust parts for Porsche longer than just about anyone else and the headers for sure longer than ANYONE else.
That is a proven company to me with history, research, experience and best of all, NO horror stories. Thats what I am buying. I am buying Kline the Company, not some Social Media Newcomer.
Kline doesnt have any data posted, this is true. But, Kline doesn't make any claims either do they? Kline doesnt say they make 19hp or 9hp, so how is that the same?
I decided to do the testing for Kline on my own dime, because I believe they will be superior performing to the Vektor at 2/3rds the price with 5 times the experience.
I am doing this to prove or disprove that Vektors fancy welds, Unique bends, Swain Coating and superior research will yield NOTHING over the Klines.
I think that's a fair assessment. But i will also share mine
- vektor's founder has been working on turbo based engine for many many years before moving on the porsche. I remember reading about this somewhere, search it up
- the only number kline posted and claims are from a full set of headers + cats + exhausts. that's not very scientific to me TBH
- kline also forces you to buy exhaust + cats. At this point, i (personally) would really question are the cats making a difference or are the exhaust doing the work?
- i have had conversions with MULTIPLE people who had bought kline sets, both inconel and stainless. I'm just gonna say the responses were VERY MIXED. I'm not gonna go into details here but do your own research across facebook and youtube.
- i don't really get your point about heavily discounted products being better, but hey whatever floats your boat.
Seriously, how can a company like Vektor claim they did multiple revisions of their headers with months of data research and release a part that hangs below the rear Cross member?
THAT is rookie Sheet. That is a part that shouldn't be released. If you need to sacrifice ripping the motor out of the car by catching a header in order to extract even 1hp over a different "safer" design, then you need to fire your entire R&D team and start from scratch. The design is dangerous and for no reason.
My strong personal opinions about the company came about by their misinformation, back peddling, snake oil tactics and refusing to back up their claims. Before all that, I never even heard of Vektor and after the Kline dyno testing on Tuesday, we may never heard from them again...
not sure why we wouldn't hear from them again?.. I understand you have different opinions, but its the fake, overly bold statements like this that really gets me to waste all this time here. If your headers perform better than fabspeed would we not hear from fabspeed again? What's the problem with having competitive products in the market? Is there only one manufacture of aftermarket exhausts we go to???
And your whole claim about the headers sitting lower, like mentioned before in my thread, it sits lower for about the width of a fingernail. And the other day i looked at it again the center cross bar actually sits even lower than the sides which i got my measurement from. So at end of the day ITS REALLY NOT A BIG DEAL.But here you are making it sound like some earth shattering difference. Seriously if you r gonna back your Porsche into something that sits right between your wheels and is close enough to come to hitting your cross bar, you got bigger issues to worry about. Btw don’t owe us all money or something? Again it’s this whole making overly bold statements all over the place, and not living up to them that doesn’t sit right with me.
yes x amount of people bought Kline sets with no data. But quite a few of us have bought Vektor as well even after hearing your endless rant and knowing that it sits lower than the cross bar.
I'll say it again, ITS OK TO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS, but its very misinforming to make bold false statements like you've been across this forum. Especially when you are being hypocritical, and claiming different things in different context ALL OVER THE PLACE. For example -
"Ya i go with the most proven products in the past even if they have no Dynos results"
"But hey, im gonna **** all over IPD because i don't like that company, despite them having a pretty decent track record."
So what's your logic here? Do you go with data or assumptions or past experience? Make up your god damn mind and stop just using whatever works better for your arguments.
It’s absolutely OK to have different opinions guys. Exhaust threads are the only ones that get this extreme or complicated. It really doesn’t have to be that complicated. There can be two or even 10 good options. Sometimes you’re splitting hairs sometimes it takes a couple of years for the dust to settle. All I know is things can get really out of hand and lose focus talking about opinions and going on and on. I’ve been in this community here since the beginning and I’ve seen it all. There’s room for everybody it will be just fine. If a product doesn’t have dyno information right out of the gate doesn’t mean it’s a bad product. You’re always going to get mixed opinions from owners and nonowners which is proven in this and every other exhaust threw it out there LOL. Again there is something for everybody we can all get along just fine! All I care about is transparency, good information and support to the community. That’s the only reason I would interfere in a thread and I apologize for all my posts Eric. I just want to make sure as far as anyone who’s interested in Kline or any questions from someone who’s been doing this over 20 years that my lines are open and I’m available. By the way, I offer pretty much every single product from every manufacture many of which I am personal friends with and sometimes we move things around to meet a particular clients goal. In time you’re going to see revisions, updates, averages of results and a lot of things happened. In the meantime find someone you like, deal with someone you trust and everything should be OK. I will be the first to say nobody is the best and nobody has a silver bullet
11-04-2018, 07:15 PM
