I will roll your eyes (my test drive experience)
09-25-2018, 03:46 AM
#46
Racer
Isn't the 911T a quicker car than the M3?
We have an M4, and it is a great car. In the right color, it has presence, style, plenty of performance, and really isn't that expensive to own, especially once the car's depreciation curve flattens after a few years. Any 911 has a lot further to fall.
With that said, they drive completely differently. A 981 Boxster S will probably run circles around an M3/M4. You need 4 seats, and although the 911 is a special car, you could keep the M3 and just get a fun car (such as a Cayman!) to compliment it. If you really want a scalpel-like tool, the Cayman or Boxster is the chassis. The M3 is such a good DD that I would personally rather have something to compliment it vs. replacing it. If you could swing it, a GT4 would make you very happy and really give you the "wow" factor that perhaps you missed in a 911. They are completely different cars. The M3 and 911 are different, but at current prices, I can't say the M4 is only 1/2 of the car the 911 is. Now, used (say a 60,000 miles 991 base at $50k vs. a 20,000 mile M3): the 991 is the one I would choose. If buying new (say a loaded C4S at $140k vs an M3 at $73k), the C4S just isn't twice the car.
I have a 997.2 C4S manual, and it has the same performance as the M4. They even both lap the Nurburgring in 7:52. That being said, they are so different: one has tons of torque and looks angry and aggressive. The other revs forever and appears classic, elegant, perhaps slightly feminine. They both cruise, but one is louder and less refined. One has more steering feel and a sense of rawness; the other just feels flat out fast. One has superb suspension out of the box, and the other floats over uneven roads at speed and needs some work. One has a real trunk, with seats that fold down and that will hold 2 bicycles and luggage for a week. The other: if you want to transport bikes, get a roof rack. The crazy thing is, the M4 has 1/2 of the miles of the C4S and is worth $10k less. I don't see the M4 depreciation slowing anytime soon. The C4S' value is going nowhere but up. In terms of performance though, the M4 is the better value, but it will cost still more to own than the 997.2!
I love to get both out on back roads and let 'er rip.
We have an M4, and it is a great car. In the right color, it has presence, style, plenty of performance, and really isn't that expensive to own, especially once the car's depreciation curve flattens after a few years. Any 911 has a lot further to fall.
With that said, they drive completely differently. A 981 Boxster S will probably run circles around an M3/M4. You need 4 seats, and although the 911 is a special car, you could keep the M3 and just get a fun car (such as a Cayman!) to compliment it. If you really want a scalpel-like tool, the Cayman or Boxster is the chassis. The M3 is such a good DD that I would personally rather have something to compliment it vs. replacing it. If you could swing it, a GT4 would make you very happy and really give you the "wow" factor that perhaps you missed in a 911. They are completely different cars. The M3 and 911 are different, but at current prices, I can't say the M4 is only 1/2 of the car the 911 is. Now, used (say a 60,000 miles 991 base at $50k vs. a 20,000 mile M3): the 991 is the one I would choose. If buying new (say a loaded C4S at $140k vs an M3 at $73k), the C4S just isn't twice the car.
I have a 997.2 C4S manual, and it has the same performance as the M4. They even both lap the Nurburgring in 7:52. That being said, they are so different: one has tons of torque and looks angry and aggressive. The other revs forever and appears classic, elegant, perhaps slightly feminine. They both cruise, but one is louder and less refined. One has more steering feel and a sense of rawness; the other just feels flat out fast. One has superb suspension out of the box, and the other floats over uneven roads at speed and needs some work. One has a real trunk, with seats that fold down and that will hold 2 bicycles and luggage for a week. The other: if you want to transport bikes, get a roof rack. The crazy thing is, the M4 has 1/2 of the miles of the C4S and is worth $10k less. I don't see the M4 depreciation slowing anytime soon. The C4S' value is going nowhere but up. In terms of performance though, the M4 is the better value, but it will cost still more to own than the 997.2!
I love to get both out on back roads and let 'er rip.
Yeah, as far as depreciation, assuming same mileage for both and moderately optioned, and same condition you're looking at pretty similar depreciation in percentage terms.
2015 f80 m3 with 40k miles you're looking at about 45k-48k private party, 72-75k new.
2015 991.1 base 911 with 40k miles probably around 60-65k private party, 105-110k new.
Anyways back to the original topic, the T makes no sense for me- similarly optioned I spec them to be about 8k difference. The 8k gives me 50 more hp with warranty, an e differential, PTV+, 6 piston front, larger brakes overall... (both PDK), it's a no brainer at least for me.
09-25-2018, 11:03 AM
#47
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
yes -
So I could be off on numbers a little +/- 2-3
1st gear - 45mph
2nd gear - 77mph
3rd gear - 112mph
4th gear - 150mph
5th -7th gear - 183mph
you can drive it as you want, shift quickly or ring it out. You can go from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to 4th. Depends on how you want to drive at that moment. Also what your regular drive speeds are. Manual is definitely more fun/engaging.
There are more PDK 911s out there than Manuals, but there are probably more Manual Ts out there than PDK
By the way - My HP4 will do 112mph in 1st gear, but I cruise around at 3500rpm in 3/4/5gears (its a 6 speed)
So I could be off on numbers a little +/- 2-3
1st gear - 45mph
2nd gear - 77mph
3rd gear - 112mph
4th gear - 150mph
5th -7th gear - 183mph
you can drive it as you want, shift quickly or ring it out. You can go from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to 4th. Depends on how you want to drive at that moment. Also what your regular drive speeds are. Manual is definitely more fun/engaging.
There are more PDK 911s out there than Manuals, but there are probably more Manual Ts out there than PDK
By the way - My HP4 will do 112mph in 1st gear, but I cruise around at 3500rpm in 3/4/5gears (its a 6 speed)
This is NOT a car you will be constantly shifting gears in. Whoever wrote that does not have significant time in a 7MT 991. Hell I don't even shift that often in my torqueless 991.1. LOL.
09-25-2018, 12:49 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Some say....
the gear ratios is not short enough.....
others say
gear ratios are too short
go figure....lol
when I was test driving a S manual, I once went into reverse instead of first, dead stop making a turn...lol
on another occasion I went into 3rd instead of first, at a red light, car moved just fine and at 25mph I realized I was in 3rd, obviously I was not pushing on the pedal just normal traffic driving
the gear ratios is not short enough.....
others say
gear ratios are too short
go figure....lol
when I was test driving a S manual, I once went into reverse instead of first, dead stop making a turn...lol
on another occasion I went into 3rd instead of first, at a red light, car moved just fine and at 25mph I realized I was in 3rd, obviously I was not pushing on the pedal just normal traffic driving
09-25-2018, 03:55 PM
#49
The 7M will take some seat time when i get my C4S, I had a couple of 4-3 shifts when trying to go 4-5 test driving.
09-25-2018, 04:17 PM
#50
Depending on what wheels were on the other 911s that you drove the reduced unsprung mass of the centerlock wheels (if equipped) might also play a role. Not that I think they are a good buy. I'd rather get a light set of 5-bolt O.Z.s. Some current OEM wheels, especially those 5-spokes one, are much heavier.
09-25-2018, 05:15 PM
#52
I don’t think the GTS has any less weight, certainly not due to less noise insulation. Porsche did increase the sound of the engine coming into the cabin on the GTS.
The Carrera T does have less noise insulation and can be lighter as a result but that is depending on the exact configuration.
The Carrera T does have less noise insulation and can be lighter as a result but that is depending on the exact configuration.
09-25-2018, 08:21 PM
#54
I don’t think the GTS has any less weight, certainly not due to less noise insulation. Porsche did increase the sound of the engine coming into the cabin on the GTS.
The Carrera T does have less noise insulation and can be lighter as a result but that is depending on the exact configuration.
The Carrera T does have less noise insulation and can be lighter as a result but that is depending on the exact configuration.
The T has lighter glass and a couple other things.
The GTS could benefit from both weight loss and from louder sound during a test drive.
09-25-2018, 08:35 PM
#55
Burning Brakes
Porsche's documentation clearly says that the 911 GTS has less noise insulation and it says no such thing about the T. "Standard features". It is right there in the product pages.
The T has lighter glass and a couple other things.
The GTS could benefit from both weight loss and from louder sound during a test drive.
The T has lighter glass and a couple other things.
The GTS could benefit from both weight loss and from louder sound during a test drive.
Look under "The concept 911 Carrera T" in Features...
"... soundproofing has been reduced to the bare minimum."
09-26-2018, 04:38 AM
#57
Burning Brakes
And while I certainly could have missed it, I didn't find any similar propaganda marketing verbiage for the GTS. 
I didn't buy the T just for its light weight, although mine will be about as light as you can go. I bought it because of how I can spec it, how it makes me feel driving it, and how much I love it. I'd venture to say, based on the sales numbers from the different threads posting up recently, that I'm not alone. It's popular enough, but not saturated. I think it will be for a while to come...
Porsche wanted to sell more Base cars. They figured that out with the 991.2 The T is the final cherry on top here at the end, IMO.
I didn't buy the T just for its light weight, although mine will be about as light as you can go. I bought it because of how I can spec it, how it makes me feel driving it, and how much I love it. I'd venture to say, based on the sales numbers from the different threads posting up recently, that I'm not alone. It's popular enough, but not saturated. I think it will be for a while to come...
Porsche wanted to sell more Base cars. They figured that out with the 991.2 The T is the final cherry on top here at the end, IMO.
09-26-2018, 09:13 AM
#58
There isn't a direct link, you have to click through the GTS and the T and select "standard features". Under interior they list the GTS as having less sound dampening, but not the T.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/modelstart/all/
Of course they might have forgotten it.
However, given that the T is 3,142 lb with the lighter glass and the GTS is 3,197 lb with all the extra equipment, larger brakes and the wider body it seems that at least here it is consistent, the T is unexpectedly heavy and probably has been calculated with full soundproofing.
Come on people. We talked about this when the T came out. "Light - how, where?"
https://www.porsche.com/usa/modelstart/all/
Of course they might have forgotten it.
However, given that the T is 3,142 lb with the lighter glass and the GTS is 3,197 lb with all the extra equipment, larger brakes and the wider body it seems that at least here it is consistent, the T is unexpectedly heavy and probably has been calculated with full soundproofing.
Come on people. We talked about this when the T came out. "Light - how, where?"
