Will I be happy with a base or should I get a gts?
07-22-2018, 01:14 PM
#61
I have a tuned 991.2 GTS and I have zero traction issues in the dry no matter how hard I drive it. If a base is having traction issues it's definitely not because of the power. I'm not sure what tires it uses, but the GTS definitely doesn't have any issues and doesn't need AWD in the dry. In the wet it breaks lose easily, of course.
07-22-2018, 02:12 PM
#62
Nordschleife Master
So obvious who 991PSI is, don't even have to spend 1/2 second thinking about it
07-22-2018, 03:38 PM
#64
The guy that said he has traction issues on his base... Strange. That car has no LSD and for the life of me I couldn't get a RWD base .2 to drift or spin with traction off.
OP, I managed to pull a 1.7 60ft on stock street tires 305/30/20.
OP, I managed to pull a 1.7 60ft on stock street tires 305/30/20.
07-22-2018, 03:42 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
impressive. pdk or manual? you stock? what did it run?
07-22-2018, 03:54 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
I'm on the same boat as flsupraguy. I currently drive a 2017 C63S Coupe and I'm looking to get into a pre-owned 991.2 base or C4 once the 992 drives prices down a bit more, with the intention of modifying it with larger turbos and bolt-ons. The base is a fantastic platform if you plan on tuning and modifying. Cobb is literally a 15 minute drive from my home, so it seems natural I go with their parts and get a pro-tune (maybe E85?) since I'm local.
Cobb hasn't updated their dyno database yet with the new 991.2 graphs, but I overlaid the Cobb Stage 1 93 Octane tune for the base 991.2 with their STOCK 991.2 GTS, and the stage 1 base actually makes more power and torque than a stock GTS!
Dashed lines are the 991.2 GTS stock, solid lines are Cobb Stage 1 93 Octane from the 991.2 Base:
Cobb hasn't updated their dyno database yet with the new 991.2 graphs, but I overlaid the Cobb Stage 1 93 Octane tune for the base 991.2 with their STOCK 991.2 GTS, and the stage 1 base actually makes more power and torque than a stock GTS!
Dashed lines are the 991.2 GTS stock, solid lines are Cobb Stage 1 93 Octane from the 991.2 Base:
07-22-2018, 04:25 PM
#67
PDK with headers and bypass pipes. Stock I was still pulling the same 60ft. Ran an 11.2 with just those mods at a notoriously bad/slow track in hot weather.
RWD GTS is easily a 10 second car with a tune. Saw a .3 second gain and a few MPH with just exhaust parts no tune.
RWD GTS is easily a 10 second car with a tune. Saw a .3 second gain and a few MPH with just exhaust parts no tune.
07-22-2018, 04:30 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
PDK with headers and bypass pipes. Stock I was still pulling the same 60ft. Ran an 11.2 with just those mods at a notoriously bad/slow track in hot weather.
RWD GTS is easily a 10 second car with a tune. Saw a .3 second gain and a few MPH with just exhaust parts no tune.
RWD GTS is easily a 10 second car with a tune. Saw a .3 second gain and a few MPH with just exhaust parts no tune.
07-22-2018, 04:47 PM
#69
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Here is something else to consider.....
I was looking at the difference in price between a C2 and a C2S. It was $15k. It wasn't that I couldn't afford the S, I just questioned if I really would enjoy the difference in the driving I do today. I used to track my cars, but those days are behind me. I have had cars with 500hp. Check my signature. But I decided I would spent that extra money over a base and take my 15 year old nephew on a trip to Europe for factory pickup that he would never forget, and buld a lifetime interest cars, engineering, and Porsches. Every time I drive that base car, memories of our trip bring a smile to my face. My nephew has decided he want to pursue an engineering degree. I don't regret getting the base model for a second.
07-22-2018, 05:44 PM
#70
I was looking at the difference in price between a C2 and a C2S. It was $15k. It wasn't that I couldn't afford the S, I just questioned if I really would enjoy the difference in the driving I do today. I used to track my cars, but those days are behind me. I have had cars with 500hp. Check my signature. But I decided I would spent that extra money over a base and take my 15 year old nephew on a trip to Europe for factory pickup that he would never forget, and buld a lifetime interest cars, engineering, and Porsches. Every time I drive that base car, memories of our trip bring a smile to my face. My nephew has decided he want to pursue an engineering degree. I don't regret getting the base model for a second.
07-22-2018, 05:46 PM
#71
Sports car AWD systems are there to help put the power down and go fast (unlike truck/suv systems that are for slow off-road 'emergency I'm stuck' use). If I floor/redline my C4S and the road surface isn't perfect (which hardly ever is), I can still feel some traction loss / chassis movement, depending on conditions...its not like a corvette where you're clearly spinning, but rather slight trajectory wag. This is what traction control (PSM /PTV) is for and why sports cars have limited slip diffs. PSM/PTV detects slip and then controls the power to prevent you from moving sideways and optimizes grip so you go straight and fast. AWD is just an enhancement to this same idea and allows traction control to be more precise (done via 4 wheels instead of 2). Lots of computers are making the car handle well. The base car lacks PTV (unless you get AWD version and option it). This is a big difference in how power is delivered (for the better) unless you want a more 'fun car' that is more squirrely...even the T has PTV. A PDK car has an electrically controlled diff, but a MT has a mechanical one, which also makes the MT behave differently (arguably slower to react and less precise).
Torque split starts at nearly zero up front when cruising and slowly progresses to 50/50 at wide open throttle/ high rev on my C4S. Can't really put the car sideways even if you try to (unless its like flooded or something). Even with AWD, all this torque is enough to get you in trouble quickly in the right conditions and if you're not careful, however when accelerating hard you have 4 wheels putting down the power and if one loses traction, the impact is less. With 2 wheels, if one loses traction, PSM/PTV does its thing to control power or brake or you wag the rear around...this is when the drama starts and people call it 'fun.' As tires wear out, the difference becomes more significant, especially in less desirable weather/conditions.
Unlike some turbo cars, power is very linear in a 991.2, so you can dial it in well. With AWD, you still have to consider limiting power in certain conditions (it doesn't grant you ability to speed in heavy rainstorms for example), but you're less worried about it because worse case AWD got your back. With RWD, you'll still be fine if you correctly steer to fix losing traction, but it all happens so fast and even pro drivers mess up. AWD is a safe 'point and go' and has you less worried about using too much power.
Similar to the problem with corvette where there isn't enough weight on the rear so you spin easy, there isn't enough weight on front of a 911 so your turning wheels can lose grip easier in conditions were the corvette wouldn't have. In a corvette, you go sideways or understeer, but in a 911, you'd spin around with snap oversteer. An old school 911 is dangerous hence called 'widowmaker.' Modern RWD 991's have plenty of traction control trickery to keep you straight though and AWD helps with this. Is it required? Probably not, but there are plenty of people who became youtube heroes after they gunned it too hard on a powerful RWD sports car.
With the crazy power most modern sports cars make, AWD is almost required in many cars to put the power down efficiently. The benefit to a 911 is its rear engine, so you get away without it, but there might be some oversteer consequences if electronics don't do this job. The extra front weight and grip is welcoming in a car like this. Having rear engine and rear wheels powered primarily and a linkage to the front for putting power down makes a lot sense (opposed to front engine powering mostly rear, then sending power back to the front). I wouldn't want a GT3 since its got so much power and only RWD, especially with MT. A TTS with AWD/PDK is more my thing. Everyone has their own preference, but many will agree more traction is better than less traction.
Torque split starts at nearly zero up front when cruising and slowly progresses to 50/50 at wide open throttle/ high rev on my C4S. Can't really put the car sideways even if you try to (unless its like flooded or something). Even with AWD, all this torque is enough to get you in trouble quickly in the right conditions and if you're not careful, however when accelerating hard you have 4 wheels putting down the power and if one loses traction, the impact is less. With 2 wheels, if one loses traction, PSM/PTV does its thing to control power or brake or you wag the rear around...this is when the drama starts and people call it 'fun.' As tires wear out, the difference becomes more significant, especially in less desirable weather/conditions.
Unlike some turbo cars, power is very linear in a 991.2, so you can dial it in well. With AWD, you still have to consider limiting power in certain conditions (it doesn't grant you ability to speed in heavy rainstorms for example), but you're less worried about it because worse case AWD got your back. With RWD, you'll still be fine if you correctly steer to fix losing traction, but it all happens so fast and even pro drivers mess up. AWD is a safe 'point and go' and has you less worried about using too much power.
Similar to the problem with corvette where there isn't enough weight on the rear so you spin easy, there isn't enough weight on front of a 911 so your turning wheels can lose grip easier in conditions were the corvette wouldn't have. In a corvette, you go sideways or understeer, but in a 911, you'd spin around with snap oversteer. An old school 911 is dangerous hence called 'widowmaker.' Modern RWD 991's have plenty of traction control trickery to keep you straight though and AWD helps with this. Is it required? Probably not, but there are plenty of people who became youtube heroes after they gunned it too hard on a powerful RWD sports car.
With the crazy power most modern sports cars make, AWD is almost required in many cars to put the power down efficiently. The benefit to a 911 is its rear engine, so you get away without it, but there might be some oversteer consequences if electronics don't do this job. The extra front weight and grip is welcoming in a car like this. Having rear engine and rear wheels powered primarily and a linkage to the front for putting power down makes a lot sense (opposed to front engine powering mostly rear, then sending power back to the front). I wouldn't want a GT3 since its got so much power and only RWD, especially with MT. A TTS with AWD/PDK is more my thing. Everyone has their own preference, but many will agree more traction is better than less traction.
07-22-2018, 05:58 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Sports car AWD systems are there to help put the power down and go fast (unlike truck/suv systems that are for slow off-road 'emergency I'm stuck' use). If I floor/redline my C4S and the road surface isn't perfect (which hardly ever is), I can still feel some traction loss / chassis movement, depending on conditions...its not like a corvette where you're clearly spinning, but rather slight trajectory wag. This is what traction control (PSM /PTV) is for and why sports cars have limited slip diffs. PSM/PTV detects slip and then controls the power to prevent you from moving sideways and optimizes grip so you go straight and fast. AWD is just an enhancement to this same idea and allows traction control to be more precise (done via 4 wheels instead of 2). Lots of computers are making the car handle well. The base car lacks PTV (unless you get AWD version and option it). This is a big difference in how power is delivered (for the better) unless you want a more 'fun car' that is more squirrely...even the T has PTV. A PDK car has an electrically controlled diff, but a MT has a mechanical one, which also makes the MT behave differently (arguably slower to react and less precise).
Torque split starts at nearly zero up front when cruising and slowly progresses to 50/50 at wide open throttle/ high rev on my C4S. Can't really put the car sideways even if you try to (unless its like flooded or something). Even with AWD, all this torque is enough to get you in trouble quickly in the right conditions and if you're not careful, however when accelerating hard you have 4 wheels putting down the power and if one loses traction, the impact is less. With 2 wheels, if one loses traction, PSM/PTV does its thing to control power or brake or you wag the rear around...this is when the drama starts and people call it 'fun.' As tires wear out, the difference becomes more significant, especially in less desirable weather/conditions.
Unlike some turbo cars, power is very linear in a 991.2, so you can dial it in well. With AWD, you still have to consider limiting power in certain conditions (it doesn't grant you ability to speed in heavy rainstorms for example), but you're less worried about it because worse case AWD got your back. With RWD, you'll still be fine if you correctly steer to fix losing traction, but it all happens so fast and even pro drivers mess up. AWD is a safe 'point and go' and has you less worried about using too much power.
Similar to the problem with corvette where there isn't enough weight on the rear so you spin easy, there isn't enough weight on front of a 911 so your turning wheels can lose grip easier in conditions were the corvette wouldn't have. In a corvette, you go sideways or understeer, but in a 911, you'd spin around with snap oversteer. An old school 911 is dangerous hence called 'widowmaker.' Modern RWD 991's have plenty of traction control trickery to keep you straight though and AWD helps with this. Is it required? Probably not, but there are plenty of people who became youtube heroes after they gunned it too hard on a powerful RWD sports car.
With the crazy power most modern sports cars make, AWD is almost required in many cars to put the power down efficiently. The benefit to a 911 is its rear engine, so you get away without it, but there might be some oversteer consequences if electronics don't do this job. The extra front weight and grip is welcoming in a car like this. Having rear engine and rear wheels powered primarily and a linkage to the front for putting power down makes a lot sense (opposed to front engine powering mostly rear, then sending power back to the front). I wouldn't want a GT3 since its got so much power and only RWD, especially with MT. A TTS with AWD/PDK is more my thing. Everyone has their own preference, but many will agree more traction is better than less traction.
Torque split starts at nearly zero up front when cruising and slowly progresses to 50/50 at wide open throttle/ high rev on my C4S. Can't really put the car sideways even if you try to (unless its like flooded or something). Even with AWD, all this torque is enough to get you in trouble quickly in the right conditions and if you're not careful, however when accelerating hard you have 4 wheels putting down the power and if one loses traction, the impact is less. With 2 wheels, if one loses traction, PSM/PTV does its thing to control power or brake or you wag the rear around...this is when the drama starts and people call it 'fun.' As tires wear out, the difference becomes more significant, especially in less desirable weather/conditions.
Unlike some turbo cars, power is very linear in a 991.2, so you can dial it in well. With AWD, you still have to consider limiting power in certain conditions (it doesn't grant you ability to speed in heavy rainstorms for example), but you're less worried about it because worse case AWD got your back. With RWD, you'll still be fine if you correctly steer to fix losing traction, but it all happens so fast and even pro drivers mess up. AWD is a safe 'point and go' and has you less worried about using too much power.
Similar to the problem with corvette where there isn't enough weight on the rear so you spin easy, there isn't enough weight on front of a 911 so your turning wheels can lose grip easier in conditions were the corvette wouldn't have. In a corvette, you go sideways or understeer, but in a 911, you'd spin around with snap oversteer. An old school 911 is dangerous hence called 'widowmaker.' Modern RWD 991's have plenty of traction control trickery to keep you straight though and AWD helps with this. Is it required? Probably not, but there are plenty of people who became youtube heroes after they gunned it too hard on a powerful RWD sports car.
With the crazy power most modern sports cars make, AWD is almost required in many cars to put the power down efficiently. The benefit to a 911 is its rear engine, so you get away without it, but there might be some oversteer consequences if electronics don't do this job. The extra front weight and grip is welcoming in a car like this. Having rear engine and rear wheels powered primarily and a linkage to the front for putting power down makes a lot sense (opposed to front engine powering mostly rear, then sending power back to the front). I wouldn't want a GT3 since its got so much power and only RWD, especially with MT. A TTS with AWD/PDK is more my thing. Everyone has their own preference, but many will agree more traction is better than less traction.
Do you think a base c4 without PSM/PTV will have sufficient straight line traction in the future when going bigger turbos/tune?
07-22-2018, 06:55 PM
#73
I personally can feel the weight of the AWD compared to a RWD. I also notice the RWD being more athletic with the light front end and overall curb weight. The nose is definitely pointy-er in terms if handling.
Keeping the weight down would be in your best interest if you're trying to be fast. GT2 RS is RWD with 700hp. Outgrips and handles all other Porsche cars.
07-22-2018, 07:15 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
For example...
My idea of 991.2 Heaven is:
- Base car
- Manual
- Sunroof delete
- simple seats
- Sport exhaust
- Sport chrono (mostly for auto-blip)
- few other options
- NO ptv
- NO pdcc
- NO awd
- NO pdk
- Upgraded DSC Sport suspension controller.
- ECU Cobb tuned to with base turbos to achieve stock GTS power levels.
- Possibly upgraded turbos to tuned GTS power levels.
- Possibly upgraded front brakes if I notice any fade.
- Ideally upgraded to a Guard lsd.
- Used, CPO, ~$90K all in.
- GTS4
- awd
- rws
- pdk
- ptv
- pdcc
- axle lift
- $40K worth of leather, carbon, and stereo upgrades.
- Stock tune and everything else 'cause of "The'll void my warranty and Porsche engineers know best".
I just ordered for my wife a Tesla 3, dual motor AWD, performance package, long range, auto-driving... 0-60 in ~3.3 seconds, and it will drive many places hands free, park itself and even come when you call it. Awesome car, completely different driving experience, perfect for her, and will be awesome for trips. And the antithesis of my 991.2 heaven car.
07-22-2018, 07:56 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
I was looking at the difference in price between a C2 and a C2S. It was $15k. It wasn't that I couldn't afford the S, I just questioned if I really would enjoy the difference in the driving I do today. I used to track my cars, but those days are behind me. I have had cars with 500hp. Check my signature. But I decided I would spent that extra money over a base and take my 15 year old nephew on a trip to Europe for factory pickup that he would never forget, and buld a lifetime interest cars, engineering, and Porsches. Every time I drive that base car, memories of our trip bring a smile to my face. My nephew has decided he want to pursue an engineering degree. I don't regret getting the base model for a second.