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So you're advocating buying a space frame race car for a beginner.......
Absolutely not. You misread or I didn't explain it well enough. Run your stock car at the track - THEN look at buying a proper track car before you do the above mods to a car like a 991. Because those mods don't make it a good track car or a good street car. That's it.
agree,.
the mods on the car actually make it unsafe in the type collision you showed..safer with stock seats and four point harnesses. so you can slide down in the impact.... saving your head. But That is a serious crash!
Mods shown are in almost every other scenario safer
as for other debate..
once you go from DE (fun with friends day) day to "racing" (open passing no point bys) than you need to ditch the road car...
racing is totally different
Get a. Miata not a radical...
learn to race with a Miata cup first.
I have had a race car, cup 260... back to road cars and DE days more fun, less expense...
real race cars cars aren't cheap lol!!!!
all you need is sticky tires and set good rotors/pads to have reliable fun. Porsche are great from the factory.
Would love to hear why. I’ve been tracking my 991 for 2.5 years and looking to go down that same route.
Okay. This book is based on my experience coming up through PCA Driver Ed and Autocross from rank Novice to Instructor, region president, and running Driver Skills and Driver Ed events. In that time I watched first hand literally thousands of people come into these programs. Not as many years as drcollie but enough to have sat beside and worked one on one with hundreds of drivers. For several years I ran Driver Skills, a program that teaches basic car control skills of threshold braking, throttle control of weight transfer, late apex line, etc. on a course coned off similar to autocross. The Driver Ed program is similarly educationally focused on skills development, but run on a track. Autocross is competitively timed runs. Its important to keep these things straight and not totally confuse and conflate them (like the OP) because while DE is run on a track it is educational, and even though autocross is not on a track it is in fact racing.
So after watching all these thousands over the years the one thing that really stands out is that if you are truly interested in developing some serious car control skills the best course is to start with Driver Skills, then progress to autocross, and finally when you are ready progress to the track. The drivers who do this, even their very first day on the track they are very capable drivers and just in a totally different mindset and so much more capable of learning than a First Timer you just cannot believe it. Until you see it. Its almost like all that track time the first ten or so times out is wasted. Yes I know that is hard to believe.
Probably nobody believes me, but give it the benefit of the doubt for a minute and ask if this really is true, why? Why might that be the case? Because it is.
So here goes. Anyone who has ever learned any new sport, or been coached to improve at a sport they think they already know (ie, driving!) you know the first thing they do is break it down into parts. Tennis, golf, baseball, does not matter. What's the first thing? The grip. Right? The stance. The swing. Anyone ever, first lesson, you need to buy the latest glove, and wear these shoes? In reality it is more like Tin Cup, where he beats his opponent at golf using a baseball bat and shovel. Because skill is way more important than equipment.
So take braking. Here's how you learn braking. Driver Skills style. You drive up to speed, with the goal of stopping as fast as possible and as close to the cone as possible. This equates to braking on the track as close to the turn as possible. Only the cone you can hit. Miss the turn you got problems. So here's what happens. Everyone brakes really early. Oh, they don't THINK they're braking early. But they are. Because if they screw up and brake late, uh, sorry Honey, I broke the car.
And yes, I get that you have been doing this 2.5 years. Well I don't know about you but I have seen plenty who tracked that long or longer and never really developed much at all because they only did track (never autocross) and put way too much focus on the car. If I were you, first thing I would do is start skipping track days and look to do as much autocross as I could find. Guaranteed you will be a much better driver when you return to the track.
You're probably wondering, what the @(#&%(& does this have to do with equipment? Well there's this whole big misconception about just what it is that makes a car go faster on a track. I bet (and know from comments) 3 maybe 4 people reading this understand its not that the car with the stiff springs and low ride corners harder. In fact in a lot of cases it corners less hard. WTF? Yeah well thank God the 3 or 4 understand. No. When you stiffen things up, eliminate bushing play, roll, all that stuff, its not making the car corner harder. Its giving you the ability to transfer weight, in other words put it into hard cornering, faster. But that also means it transitions from hard cornering to sliding (and spinning) that much faster also.
What you really want, when the focus is learning, is the exact opposite of what everyone thinks: a car with LESS traction. Because then things happen at a speed you can get your mind around. Instead everyone swallows the racer blue fantasy pill that the way to drive faster is make the car faster. When, as I just explained above, they don't even understand what fast is!
So now, since you know the point is not to go fast but to learn skills, what you want for the track are some nice cheap tires. You're just going to wear them out anyway. When learning is your goal then you also see that the tires that don't stick as well, they also don't put as much stress on the brakes and suspension. So another plus. They also tend to be the most forgiving, in that they transition from sticking to sliding much more progressively than super sticky tires like say Hoosiers. Then because you are going a little slower and getting better more obvious feedback its a lot easier to take the next step, which is driving with all the nannies turned off. At least to the extent you are able.
Bottom line, don't make the unforgivable (for a guy supposedly doing this professionally) mistake of the OP, confusing and conflating Driver Ed with racing. With Driver Ed the whole point is to develop skills. With racing the whole point is to win. Completely different goals call for completely different methods.
Well said Chuck! I got it
Although not a racer, but coming from other sport experiences I absolutely agree to everything you have said. Actually when you are learning less capable equipment is a plus. And then once you learned the skill you really appreciate better equipment, but not before then.
Okay. This book is based on my experience coming up through PCA Driver Ed and Autocross from rank Novice to Instructor, region president, and running Driver Skills and Driver Ed events. In that time I watched first hand literally thousands of people come into these programs. Not as many years as drcollie but enough to have sat beside and worked one on one with hundreds of drivers. For several years I ran Driver Skills, a program that teaches basic car control skills of threshold braking, throttle control of weight transfer, late apex line, etc. on a course coned off similar to autocross. The Driver Ed program is similarly educationally focused on skills development, but run on a track. Autocross is competitively timed runs. Its important to keep these things straight and not totally confuse and conflate them (like the OP) because while DE is run on a track it is educational, and even though autocross is not on a track it is in fact racing.
So after watching all these thousands over the years the one thing that really stands out is that if you are truly interested in developing some serious car control skills the best course is to start with Driver Skills, then progress to autocross, and finally when you are ready progress to the track. The drivers who do this, even their very first day on the track they are very capable drivers and just in a totally different mindset and so much more capable of learning than a First Timer you just cannot believe it. Until you see it. Its almost like all that track time the first ten or so times out is wasted. Yes I know that is hard to believe.
Probably nobody believes me, but give it the benefit of the doubt for a minute and ask if this really is true, why? Why might that be the case? Because it is.
So here goes. Anyone who has ever learned any new sport, or been coached to improve at a sport they think they already know (ie, driving!) you know the first thing they do is break it down into parts. Tennis, golf, baseball, does not matter. What's the first thing? The grip. Right? The stance. The swing. Anyone ever, first lesson, you need to buy the latest glove, and wear these shoes? In reality it is more like Tin Cup, where he beats his opponent at golf using a baseball bat and shovel. Because skill is way more important than equipment.
So take braking. Here's how you learn braking. Driver Skills style. You drive up to speed, with the goal of stopping as fast as possible and as close to the cone as possible. This equates to braking on the track as close to the turn as possible. Only the cone you can hit. Miss the turn you got problems. So here's what happens. Everyone brakes really early. Oh, they don't THINK they're braking early. But they are. Because if they screw up and brake late, uh, sorry Honey, I broke the car.
And yes, I get that you have been doing this 2.5 years. Well I don't know about you but I have seen plenty who tracked that long or longer and never really developed much at all because they only did track (never autocross) and put way too much focus on the car. If I were you, first thing I would do is start skipping track days and look to do as much autocross as I could find. Guaranteed you will be a much better driver when you return to the track.
You're probably wondering, what the @(#&%(& does this have to do with equipment? Well there's this whole big misconception about just what it is that makes a car go faster on a track. I bet (and know from comments) 3 maybe 4 people reading this understand its not that the car with the stiff springs and low ride corners harder. In fact in a lot of cases it corners less hard. WTF? Yeah well thank God the 3 or 4 understand. No. When you stiffen things up, eliminate bushing play, roll, all that stuff, its not making the car corner harder. Its giving you the ability to transfer weight, in other words put it into hard cornering, faster. But that also means it transitions from hard cornering to sliding (and spinning) that much faster also.
What you really want, when the focus is learning, is the exact opposite of what everyone thinks: a car with LESS traction. Because then things happen at a speed you can get your mind around. Instead everyone swallows the racer blue fantasy pill that the way to drive faster is make the car faster. When, as I just explained above, they don't even understand what fast is!
So now, since you know the point is not to go fast but to learn skills, what you want for the track akre some nice cheap tires. You're just going to wear them out anyway. When learning is your goal then you also see that the tires that don't stick as well, they also don't put as much stress on the brakes and suspension. So another plus. They also tend to be the most forgiving, in that they transition from sticking to sliding much more progressively than super sticky tires like say Hoosiers. Then because you are going a little slower and getting better more obvious feedback its a lot easier to take the next step, which is driving with all the nannies turned off. At least to the extent you are able.
Bottom line, don't make the unforgivable (for a guy supposedly doing this professionally) mistake of the OP, confusing and conflating Driver Ed with racing. With Driver Ed the whole point is to develop skills. With racing the whole point is to win. Completely different goals call for completely different methods.
Got it?
I don’t think I could agree more with what you’re saying. That said, I think the reason I approve of the mods to this car (in the original posters first post) is because none of the mods are focused on performance (other than the tires which could be slightly less aggressive admittedly). Most are focused on safety gear. I’m still on street tires. At Sebring next month, I plan on focusing only on braking concidentally. Other than Carrera S brakes on my base Carrera, my car is stock and only looking for a bar and harnesses for safety. Not looking to modify the car at at all just yet. I have no interest in doing any autocross, but I can see why you recommend it. Thank you for taking the time to write up your thoughts. Looking to get all the help I can get
chuck911 is right on the mark with his post, I agree 100%. There is so much to discuss on this topic that it should have its own thread here in the forum with a sticky on it. At the end of the day you have some old salts that have been instructing plus guys that have real race cars - then more youthful exuberance looking to go as fast as possible at the track on the other. The two sides don't always agree (laughing) and then you have the go-fast merchants who make a living selling you stuff to do to your car - and there is nothing wrong with that. Mostly though, the smart man listens to experience, because it's quite the teacher.
Just a small anecdotal story from my track/autocross early days:
In 1995 I bought a BMW M3 and really got into autocross in a big way, mostly with BMWCCA NCC region. Among the top finishers you are looking at 10th's of a second, remember this because its going to come back later in the story. Out of forty or so cars on a Sunday, I could usually place third or fourth consistently - once in a while I'd get second -, but first place always eluded me and it was always taken by David LaSalle, who was a regular and extremely consistent, also the chapter president in the day. David didn't have an M3, he had the 325i with R-Compound tires and that was it for mods. I set about modifying my M3, first the R-Comp tires, because that was most critical, then with Schroth belts because I was sliding around inside - and eventually that morphed into the whole enchilada, Roll bar, 6 points, racing seats, sway bars, full suspension change, camber plates, brakes, aggressive alignments and I poured a boat load of money into that car. It finally got me to a solid second and frequent first place on the Sundays - it was an Autocross / Track weapon. When I'd do track days, all I would do is make the alignment less aggressive than for autocross, but changing the toe and giving the camber plates a shove. However, the car became MISERABLE to use on the street. I had it set up too aggressive.
One day David - the consistent first place finisher - was admiring my car and how it was set up. We were done with the scoring and were doing "Fun Runs" at the end of the day. I said to David "Hop in an go try a couple of runs, have fun and tell me what you think". The timers were still set up and David got in my car - first time he had ever driven it - and immediately knocked off 2.5 seconds off my best time of the day. TWO AND A HALF SECONDS. In autocross, that's a Grand Slam. Then he did it again. He said "Wow - what a car!". I was devastated - and on the way home I realized that it really is the driver, not the machine. That re-set my thinking and approach, and I focused on technique, not equipment from then on.
A year or so later, I also spent the afternoon with Bill Auberlen, BMW Factory Race Driver, in an E36 M3 at New Hampshire Motor Speedway and that was a huge learning experience. He taught me calmness, balance and consistency. Anyone can put down a single hot lap, but it's pretty difficult to do that for an entire session. I've been crashed out in the tree line by students at the track (broken ribs), gone upside down with them, spun out so many times I can't count, and even blew up my own Porsche engine on the track $$$$. All that leads to experience. And us old timers LOVE to share that and bore you with stories....lol.
Ho boy - I hate to be the one to poop on this thread, but here's 20 years of Instructor Experience speaking from MY viewpoint. Feel free to disregard.
When you take a basic street car like this glass-sunroof 991 and start doing these mods to it, what you really wind up with is a very expensive car that is not really very good on the street or the track. They are very costly to repair if you ball it up into the Armco because they are unibody, your car insurance won't cover it and consumables are expensive. Roll bars are not full cages - you won't see just a roll bar in TPCs racing cars in the photos. If you put that rig upside down and the roof comes down, you are locked into the seats with the hard mounts and 6-points. The roll bar keeps the back of the roof up, but what about at the A-pillars where your head is? That's why you have full cages. This Corvette had a roll bar only, for example.
When you take these modified cars on the street - they are compromised as well and make fairly miserable cruisers. Been there, done that.
Price out a new engine on that 991, you'll be stunned. Stuff does happen at the track and happens frequently. Repairs are costly on a 991. For the cost of modifying this 991, you can have a REALLY nice tube frame race car that is far more fun to drive and cost far less to repair from either a mechanical or collision standpoint. One of the forum members here just bought a Radical which is 100x smarter than modifying a 991 for track duty. And way more fun, too. Once you do an center-position, open cockpit car at the track you'll never go back to running street cars on the track. The difference is huge.
Just pointing out an alternate opinion on all this....carry on.
Originally Posted by RRDnA
So you're advocating buying a space frame race car for a beginner.......
What a beginner needs more than anything is basic training in a controlled safe environment.
What does this mean? It means taking your unmodified car, in good condition, to a group or club that has a formal training program starting with
(1) Personal prep
(2) Car prep
(3) Track behaviour and etiquette
(4) Followed by instruction (corner by corner, followed by sector by sector, followed whole laps on line at low speed to identify the line, braking points, corner entry, mid-corner, corner exit.
(5) Followed by seat time working on accuracy - followed by seat time working on consistency.
Safety and driving with in your limits should be inherent to all of this, particularly if you take instruction from licensed instructors and take part in graded events under the sanction of a national motorsport authority.
The most important things to encourage in motorsport are safe behaviours and the first cab off the rank is understanding your own limitations and the limitations of your vehicle.
The OP has sought advice and focussed on safety - this is a good thing. However, I would say this, the angle between the belt fix point and seat guides seems quite high - this is something to watch for as spinal compression can result from this configuration if that angle is too great (may be just the angle of the photo). The seats whilst great on track are poorly suited to road use, as you can't monitor your blind spot - in fact those seats would be illegal on the road in Australia other than for a car with limited road use licence (events e.g. rally cars) allowing travel between closed stages etc.
To the OP get some good training under your belt - get involved in a good club that has non W2W racing and build your experience carefully. No one wins a track day and a State or club trophy is worth 20 bucks . Enjoy your car in good health.
Also, don't get a tune and don't change the suspension it often stuffs things up in a Porsche.
I took it (and agree) that half assing a roll cage makes for a false sense of safety and that more often that not you are better off driving it as is on Occassion or going all out since having a half street/ half track car bequeathes a car that sucks at both. A Sunroof car is the wrong car to track. A 991 street car is a tough value proposition in terms of properly maintaining for track use. That's different than stating to buy an all out race car.
My personal view is that for the novice or beginner there is no better platform than a Miata to start tracking. Nobody cares about brand and how much your car cost at the track.
To each their own. opinions are like buttholes....
Also - I bet that 991 will be hella fun After slightly lowering mine, I can't believe how off road ready the one pictured looks:P
DE days =
Just have fun...
learn to be a better driver.
See the lotus cup 240 race car behind me in this picture in my advance run group?
This Porsche 911 S is 100% stock with street tires at this time (pagid yellow pads)
I not only ran with this cup 24.(passed him) and several other cars (doesn't matter), but he had a massive crash in the session - I do have video of it, will pm it to those who are instructors but not post it (out of respect) - happened right infront me.
moral of story ( CRAP happens ).
track it be prepared to walk away from it.
have fun!
and unlike some posts above, I always think about the car... brake just a little earlier than the limit for added safety.
I want to bring my car home.
does not make people "less skilled". Than again I'm not a racer anymore
Last edited by snake eyes; 03-14-2018 at 06:05 PM.
I bet I have more fun on DE than the 911 crowd.... I'm certainly less fearful of pushing it to the limits and already have 4 different color body panels so one more won't bother me I can have fun in it. I am too stressed when I track my 911 and it's too much car for me to explore the limits of. One of the reasons I roll my eyes at people claiming to be so fast in the 3.0tt with the "power" that they probably don't have the skill to use anyway. Hate all you want, but i'm comfortable knowing I'm not the Stig.
I bet I have more fun on DE than the 911 crowd.... I'm certainly less fearful of pushing it to the limits and already have 4 different color body panels so one more won't bother me I can have fun in it. I am too stressed when I track my 911 and it's too much car for me to explore the limits of. One of the reasons I roll my eyes at people claiming to be so fast in the 3.0tt with the "power" that they probably don't have the skill to use anyway. Hate all you want, but i'm comfortable knowing I'm not the Stig.
Miata?
You can have fun when you're with the right run group...
fun in my old 997 with buddy in his 997.. he races in COMMA with a spec Miata
chuck911 is right on the mark with his post, I agree 100%. There is so much to discuss on this topic that it should have its own thread here in the forum with a sticky on it. At the end of the day you have some old salts that have been instructing plus guys that have real race cars - then more youthful exuberance looking to go as fast as possible at the track on the other. The two sides don't always agree (laughing) and then you have the go-fast merchants who make a living selling you stuff to do to your car - and there is nothing wrong with that. Mostly though, the smart man listens to experience, because it's quite the teacher.
Just a small anecdotal story from my track/autocross early days:
In 1995 I bought a BMW M3 and really got into autocross in a big way, mostly with BMWCCA NCC region. Among the top finishers you are looking at 10th's of a second, remember this because its going to come back later in the story. Out of forty or so cars on a Sunday, I could usually place third or fourth consistently - once in a while I'd get second -, but first place always eluded me and it was always taken by David LaSalle, who was a regular and extremely consistent, also the chapter president in the day. David didn't have an M3, he had the 325i with R-Compound tires and that was it for mods. I set about modifying my M3, first the R-Comp tires, because that was most critical, then with Schroth belts because I was sliding around inside - and eventually that morphed into the whole enchilada, Roll bar, 6 points, racing seats, sway bars, full suspension change, camber plates, brakes, aggressive alignments and I poured a boat load of money into that car. It finally got me to a solid second and frequent first place on the Sundays - it was an Autocross / Track weapon. When I'd do track days, all I would do is make the alignment less aggressive than for autocross, but changing the toe and giving the camber plates a shove. However, the car became MISERABLE to use on the street. I had it set up too aggressive.
One day David - the consistent first place finisher - was admiring my car and how it was set up. We were done with the scoring and were doing "Fun Runs" at the end of the day. I said to David "Hop in an go try a couple of runs, have fun and tell me what you think". The timers were still set up and David got in my car - first time he had ever driven it - and immediately knocked off 2.5 seconds off my best time of the day. TWO AND A HALF SECONDS. In autocross, that's a Grand Slam. Then he did it again. He said "Wow - what a car!". I was devastated - and on the way home I realized that it really is the driver, not the machine. That re-set my thinking and approach, and I focused on technique, not equipment from then on.
A year or so later, I also spent the afternoon with Bill Auberlen, BMW Factory Race Driver, in an E36 M3 at New Hampshire Motor Speedway and that was a huge learning experience. He taught me calmness, balance and consistency. Anyone can put down a single hot lap, but it's pretty difficult to do that for an entire session. I've been crashed out in the tree line by students at the track (broken ribs), gone upside down with them, spun out so many times I can't count, and even blew up my own Porsche engine on the track $$$$. All that leads to experience. And us old timers LOVE to share that and bore you with stories....lol.
What a great story thank you for this and great insights too. Would love to hear more.
So you're advocating buying a space frame race car for a beginner.......
Absolutely not. You misread or I didn't explain it well enough. Run your stock car at the track - THEN look at buying a proper track car before you do the above mods to a car like a 991. Because those mods don't make it a good track car or a good street car. That's it.
I agree 100%... On the one hand, the shop did good work technically speaking so I don;t want to rain on their parade... On the other hand those mods makes no sense to me - If you are beginning track days, this is way overkill and makes the car pretty useless for daily driving - good luck checking out your blind spots in traffic with those seats' side wings !!! And if you are *really* into track days, you generally need a dedicated car you can afford to break, or got full enchilada GT3 (used if you must) - a base 991 is probably not the right car to modify, bang for buck... both expensive and not competitive (and pretty good without mods by the same token)...
Curious, did they turn off the airbag lights for the seat stuff that is no longer there ?
I agree 100%... On the one hand, the shop did good work technically speaking so I don;t want to rain on their parade... On the other hand those mods makes no sense to me - If you are beginning track days, this is way overkill and makes the car pretty useless for daily driving - good luck checking out your blind spots in traffic with those seats' side wings !!! And if you are *really* into track days, you generally need a dedicated car you can afford to break, or got full enchilada GT3 (used if you must) - a base 991 is probably not the right car to modify, bang for buck... both expensive and not competitive (and pretty good without mods by the same token)...
Curious, did they turn off the airbag lights for the seat stuff that is no longer there ?
Other then the sway bars which may or may not be necessary , how is the rollbar, proper seat and harnesses bad (that allows someone to use Hans). Those are all safety related items. For the track.
As good as the advice given here is, people might not have the time or inclination or resources to be such a "student" of this sport.
Start w car control clinics, master that, then go autocross, chase around cones, spend a full day every time to drive 2 minutes, master that, transition into HPDE, master that on street tires w limited grip, and make sure you do these w miatas or 944s or E30 BMWs or whatever the slow car du jour is. It's all great but that'll take YEARS. And for what? Not going to be the next Senna if you're starting this sport after your thirties or forties that's for sure. Meanwhile, you have a life to live today. You might not want to spend those years in boredom driving ultra slow cars, pointing by many a less-skilled driver in a faster car on track, repetitively. You don't even know whether you'll have the free time or the funds or the health to continue to do HPDE for that many years.
I have all the respect in the world for the "old timers". I think you learned these skills at a better time, with less horsepower, without the nannies, the right way. The point being made isn't lost on me. I wish I could've been on that journey with you. But those times I think have passed. The speed/capability differentials between modern cars and a 944 or an air cooled 911 are just too drastic. Yes I know it's not the car it's the driver, but that only holds to a certain extent. With a Miata on street tires, you'll get lapped by half the field at HPDE. You'll have your arm out the window permanently regardless of run group. I think that's a bit much.
There is nothing wrong w a reversible mod or two, and running what you brung.
03-13-2018, 10:12 PM
