So change the power grid Are you talking about the compulsory acquisition of private assets? You do understand how much this would cost? Power grids are very complex beasts and includes transmission and distribution networks that are linked my multiple interconnectors. They are in fact decentralised

Every home could produce its own electricity - this is known as embedded generation, any form of small scale generation that is linked to a network requires massive amounts of management and major network upgrades to ensure the overall network remains balanced.

Unfortunately the whole EV debate tends skate over the reality.

The fundamental problem we have is the average person has no idea about the physics, engineering and cost to do this type of stuff. As I said before, its generational and comes with an enormous price tag. Read the simple list I wrote above, consider some of those questions in detail and the responses they entail. And thats just the tip of the ice berg

 

Oh really, in that case how are your SNAP shares doing?

 

Well, never said it'd be easy/cheap/fast The current road, gas station, and power gen infrastructures were built over the course of the last century. But there's some seemingly odd regulations. For example, my dad has a few kW of solar installed on his home in Florida and it has to plugged into the grid by law. So when the hurricanes hit a few months ago and the power went out, he couldn't use the solar on his own roof to power his home. He had a gas generator so no biggy as far as not having emergency power, but seems kinda strange.

Anyway, of note, the number of EV charger stations has grown exponentially the last half decade while there are a few hydrogen stations here and there.

 

Boy, there are a lot of haters out there. I suspect that this roadster, even with a weight maybe around 4500-5000 lbs, will corner incredibly well given its center of gravity is probably 5 inches off the ground, beating just about all ICE road cars. The Model S is actually a great performer around the corners thanks to its low CoG. The only downside might be that it won't be able to do track days unless there's a supercharger on track. Dont forget, even the heavy Veyron turned in a 7:40 ring time and this roadster is faster in a straight line, and has a lower CoG.

 

^^^ No one is hating, the point being made is heavy cars can handle OK for short periods - at the end of the day weight + physics overwhelm the tires even after a relatively short period of time. The reality is Tesla and the Elon fan club choose to selectively play the numbers games e.g. 0-60, fastest car in the world etc.

However, when tested in a performance context they are found wanting e.g. Car and Driver. In the latter instance Car and Driver were heavily criticised for not running the S in its Lightning Lap series - so in the end they did and the outcome was poor. All of this was entirely predictable (heavy cars are never good round a circuit and EVs have to pull a massive current to move so much weight at track speeds) - needless to say this caused a Tesla fan club melt down.

People need to accept the Model S for what it is, a largish family car driven by an electric motor. From my own perspective the Tesla Model S has the design flair of a Mazda 6 with worse fit and finish. Will it be fine as a daily driver, sure but so will a Mazda 6 at a fraction of the price. At its price point outside the US its nothing more than a rich mans toy. The five or so people I know that own a Model S own 4 or 5 other cars including large SUVs (and only 1 has a battery back up facility for the car - so much for green credentials).

For EVs to be accepted by mainstream moms and pops with large mortgages, they have to be priced at the right level and the real cost of ownership and the impact that has on others has to be known and discussed in an open and honest fashion.

I'm sorry to say the new Roadster looks like a bit of tinsel designed to take investors eyes off the bottom for long enough for Tesla to take on either more debt or raise capital through the equity markets in order to keep it in business a little bit longer.

 

That's just how it goes. Anytime someone is putting in the effort needed to accomplish something difficult, there will be two types of people nearby. The members of group #1 will be pointing fingers, chuckling, and explaining exactly how it won't work, even as it's being done. The members of group #2 are working to help make it happen behind the scenes, not causing a lot of drama. You rarely hear from them, but they're the only important ones.

 

Seems like this argument always comes out whenever anyone has a different opinion of Tesla than the fanboy club, regardless of how well reasoned or based in reality it is.

 

Hi Blig. First, I have no hate in my body - and I am not sure how you drew that conclusion. Second, I'm a life long engineer and making some points and opinions about the future of this car. You are mistaken if you think a 5000 pound car is going to beat "just about all ICE road cars". Maybe on a straight line for a short period of time but not around a track. And let's not forget why many of us like sports cars. The sound matters and the handling matters. I want Musk to succeed but frankly these coal powered EVs are doing more damage to the environment than my ICE car when you factor in all of the inefficiencies of power distribution from the power plant, transmissions losses, charging losses etc.. EV cars are a shell game. Unless we change our power grid to non-fossil fuels (nuclear, solar, wind, hydro etc), then EVs are only a feel good measure.

Yep. Thanks.

 

Agreed with all of the points you make. Sound and handling matter to me, who cares whether a soulless EV can pull off a 0-60mph feat in 2 seconds. If that’s indeed our future we are going to wish we could argue about NA vs Turbo engines!

 

If we forget price there is a good argument for advanced ICE vehicles and one that tackles the new roadster head on;

"One would think a wouldn’t be the most efficient car in the world, considering they’re built to go as fast as possible. But the automotive world is changing, and believe it or not, the http://www.autoguide.com/new-cars/mercedes-benz/index.html W07 Hybrid Formula 1 race car is actually more energy efficient than your average electric vehicle on the road. According to a recent report, the thermal efficiency of Mercedes’ class-leading hybrid Formula 1 engine is over 45 percent and there’s a possibility it will reach 50 percent within the next couple of seasons."

Faster acceleration, faster top speed with a good track record - whats not to like?

 

No, no they don't. That's not how weight works for cornering.

"Weight hurts cornering" is a variant of the common sense "heavy things fall faster." It's intuitive, but that's not how the physics works.

Weight by itself has no effect on cornering, because cornering is about the tires using friction to exert a lateral force on the car to change its vector. The amount of force required increases with the weight of the car, but the force exerted is a product of weight, area in contact with the ground, and the coefficient of friction. Since both values increase with weight, it cancels out.

Distribution of weight matters, as does things like reducing body roll. Distribution obviously isn't affected by the total weight, and as we know, Tesla's actually got a bit of an advantage in this area because they can build cars with a low center of gravity. Body roll is a suspension thing, and does require more force to control as weight increases, but it's not that hard to increase spring strength (or more complex things like the hydraulics in PDCC). Porsche certainly has an advantage in this department.

Porsche already makes a heavy car that corners well - the Panamera Turbo. And not just "for short periods." I doubt the Tesla Roadster will be competitive with the 911 in cornering, but not because it's heavy. It'll be because Tesla has very little experience with design in this area, and Porsche has decades.

 

^
Or consider the fact that the relative lightweight Miata at a svelte 2350 lbs corners no better, and perhaps worse, than a 991 911 that weighs nearly 1000 lbs more.

 

While I find the Tesla fanboys intensely irritating, the first couple of pages of this thread are nothing but knee-jerk hate. "Haters" is often an invalid argument, but damn, there's a lot of irrational hate in this thread. The comment that Bliq00 was responding to definitely falls into the "unthinking knee jerk hate of all EVs, not just Telsa" category, and thus he's not wrong.

I think there's plenty to criticize about the Model S and particularly the Model 3 without "ewww!" meme images and hand-waving about cars having "souls." Uh, no offense intended if Bemo is actually a Native American animist and believes that his car is his spirit guide.

Will Tesla make a good sports car? I don't know, though I'm skeptical. Is a good EV sports car possible? Why not? It's just a power plant. The rest of the car is a car, regardless of where the motive power comes from. Are turbine powered race cars "gross" because they go "woooshhhhhhh" rather than vroom vroom? Personally, I welcome instant torque from a standing start. I know if someone gifted me a 918, I sure wouldn't turn them down because it had a hybrid powertrain.

 

As much as everyone complained about F1 going turbo along with fuel flow limitations, it did accomplish the goal of making F1 technology relevant to road cars. 20 years ago, ICE were only about 20% BTE (brake thermal efficiency). I think the Prius has the current most efficient gas engine you can buy at about 40%. The new Mazda Skyactiv-X should be around 45%. The very best diesels are just getting to 48%-50%.

The stat about being more energy efficient than the average electric vehicle is pretty.... well it needs a lot more background. Electric motors themselves are in the 95% efficiency range along with the power inverters to send current to the motors. So the system efficiency is like 90% which is far better than ICE engine. So the way they do the overall efficiency is dependent on the efficiency of the power generation for the electricity for the EV. A combined cycle natural gas plant can hit like 70% efficiency. A coal plant is not so good on efficiency, only like 40%. So a lot of fuzzy math in there to make the statement that F1 engines are more efficient than the average EV. Also don't know if the efficiency of converting oil to gasoline is taken into consideration.

 

Don't kid yourself, if Tesla survives long enough to build it, it will sell assuming it comes close to how it is advertised. The pricing will to some degree self limit demand, which is ok for Tesla as their production efficiency isn't up to most other car companies as illustrated by their Model 3 delivery problems. I don't see a reason to be threatened by it, on the contrary the more cool cars available the better. Long term I am more worried about what government regulations will do to choice for people who actually enjoy driving performance cars.