Notices
991
Sponsored by:

GTS Showdown Results - Total 911

 
Old 09-28-2017, 09:13 AM
  #46  
chuckbdc
Super User
 
chuckbdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Maryland USA
Posts: 3,004
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

I think the bang of a normally aspirated 991 with PDK popping off shifts at full throttle fully explains the test's subjective results and the love of the 991.1. It has kept me in mine despite my drooling over the insane oomph of a Turbo or the speed and agility a 991.2 with rear steering.

The cars in the test were very clearly not comparable for subjective assessments.

The shorter wheelbase of the 997 is clearly more exciting, especially if it is trying to keep up with a 991 while it drives away. One can get that effect with inferior or overinflated tires too. And manual shifting is clearly more involving if by involving one means more exertion to get up or down the gears. That makes a Miata more involving too. Different strokes is the applicable expression...
chuckbdc is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 10:16 AM
  #47  
R_Rated
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Where aspirations are natural
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by chuckbdc View Post
I think the bang of a normally aspirated 991 with PDK popping off shifts at full throttle fully explains the test's subjective results and the love of the 991.1. It has kept me in mine despite my drooling over the insane oomph of a Turbo or the speed and agility a 991.2 with rear steering.

The cars in the test were very clearly not comparable for subjective assessments.

The shorter wheelbase of the 997 is clearly more exciting, especially if it is trying to keep up with a 991 while it drives away. One can get that effect with inferior or overinflated tires too. And manual shifting is clearly more involving if by involving one means more exertion to get up or down the gears. That makes a Miata more involving too. Different strokes is the applicable expression...
agreed, any comparison should have consistent transmissions. This is a huge problem!

also, the Miata is engineered to be fun. The Porsche is engineered to produce positive magazine stats.
R_Rated is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:39 PM
  #48  
///M3THOD
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
///M3THOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: ATL
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by STG View Post
Small thing to point out, but a point that should be corrected when making a comparison.. these 991.2 times are factory times, fudged to not cannibalize sales of the upper range of 991's.

From everything Ive read the GTS is 3.6 to 60 with PDK.. when you look at the stats of the vehicles to one another it becomes even more obvious that the factory times cannot be accurate. Also, why have different transmissions?


I love all 911's.. but the fact is when it comes down to PERFORMANCE, the 991.2 trumps. However, if you want to argue about soul, exhaust tone, etc.. all these subjective categories that appeal to the emotions can be argued in any direction.

I dont understand why everyone feels the need to justify their choice.

Last edited by ///M3THOD; 09-28-2017 at 08:25 PM.
///M3THOD is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:57 PM
  #49  
shake1
User
 
shake1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Thanks for posting screenshots of the article. Great read and nice photographs.

Originally Posted by K-A View Post
If it makes you feel better, and if you keep your car for a awhile, your .1 S will almost certainly be worth more than a .2 GTS in 5-10 years time.
Interesting prediction...if you had to make an unbiased guess, do you predict that the Base 991.1 > 991.2 values 10 years from now as well?

My C4 is the only 911 variant I've ever been in and your comment implies that the 991.1's will be looked as a sought after model in the future (similar to what has happened with the 993). Or is your comment only geared towards the "higher tier" S and GTS models. Clearly all of this is speculative and only time will tell but interesting discussion.
shake1 is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 01:04 PM
  #50  
R_Rated
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Where aspirations are natural
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by shake1 View Post
Thanks for posting screenshots of the article. Great read and nice photographs.



Interesting prediction...if you had to make an unbiased guess, do you predict that the Base 991.1 > 991.2 values 10 years from now as well?

My C4 is the only 911 variant I've ever been in and your comment implies that the 991.1's will be looked as a sought after model in the future (similar to what has happened with the 993). Or is your comment only geared towards the "higher tier" S and GTS models. Clearly all of this is speculative and only time will tell but interesting discussion.
Many of us speculate that the #1 cars will be the darling of the contemporary, water cooled 911's. The GTS will never reach GT3 heights in terms of collectability and future auction prices but there will likely be a smaller gap in value between base to S vs S to GTS. Think Base <<< S <<<<<<<< GTS or something along those lines.

Also - for those of us that tinker... exhaust, suspension, aero, intake/plenum, etc... that actually hurts the value vs stock for long term speculative value.

Key word here is speculative and you'd likely be better off buying gold if making money is your end game. The #2 crows feels very differently however, recent values of the #1 cars show tangible short term data. Porsche struggles with sales of the #2 cars so maybe in 20 years the thought will be that the #2 cars are more rare. No 911 is ferrari rare and it's still a mass produced car even though perhaps the highest quality mass produced car in the world.
R_Rated is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 01:11 PM
  #51  
koala
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
koala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 722
Received 10 Likes on 8 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Boulder Mike View Post
FWIW coming from a current .2GTS and former .1S owner that has put more than insignificant miles on both you didn't make a mistake. Both .1 and .2 are great cars.


My Audi S3 could hang (particularly at altitude) with my .1S and I didn't care at all because the .1 is such a lively car.
Yes, we have that same issue here in Calgary - the turbo cars are appreciably faster at our high altitudes!
koala is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 01:12 PM
  #52  
koala
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
koala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 722
Received 10 Likes on 8 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by K-A View Post
If it makes you feel better, and if you keep your car for a awhile, your .1 S will almost certainly be worth more than a .2 GTS in 5-10 years time.
The speculator part of me feels that this is a possibility. I do plan to keep this car for a long time - so long as it's reliable and still fun to drive, I'll have it in my garage.

Granted, I'm not too worried about the value... cars are a horrible investment, generally speaking.
koala is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 06:22 PM
  #53  
KenTO
User
 
KenTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Toronto
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

How can you compare cars with different transmission setups? Couldn't they get 3 cars specced similarly?
KenTO is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 10:29 PM
  #54  
flickroll
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
flickroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ///M3THOD View Post
Small thing to point out, but a point that should be corrected when making a comparison.. these 991.2 times are factory times, fudged to not cannibalize sales of the upper range of 991's.

From everything Ive read the GTS is 3.6 to 60 with PDK.. when you look at the stats of the vehicles to one another it becomes even more obvious that the factory times cannot be accurate. Also, why have different transmissions?


I love all 911's.. but the fact is when it comes down to PERFORMANCE, the 991.2 trumps. However, if you want to argue about soul, exhaust tone, etc.. all these subjective categories that appeal to the emotions can be argued in any direction.

I dont understand why everyone feels the need to justify their choice.
flickroll is offline  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:03 PM
  #55  
K-A
Super User
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,197
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by shake1 View Post
Thanks for posting screenshots of the article. Great read and nice photographs.



Interesting prediction...if you had to make an unbiased guess, do you predict that the Base 991.1 > 991.2 values 10 years from now as well?

My C4 is the only 911 variant I've ever been in and your comment implies that the 991.1's will be looked as a sought after model in the future (similar to what has happened with the 993). Or is your comment only geared towards the "higher tier" S and GTS models. Clearly all of this is speculative and only time will tell but interesting discussion.
Yes, I personally have no doubt this will be the case, and I think we already have seen it proven in how the market reacted to *every* 991.1 once the .2's came out (and the tepid market reaction to .2's in terms of its initial sales). .1's all of a sudden held their value to a level I haven't see on a modern mass produced car, and even started to appreciate. People who bought 991.1's a year or two ago could literally sell their cars for more, today. This is a precursor for the future, imo.

911's are very consistent in how they're valued in the future. Of course, rare models always get highest priority, then when it comes to more "normal" models; purer, "last of," more soulful generations always do better. For example, air cooled 911's which are far inferior to water cooled models in terms of performance, now are skyrocketing. Even base, high mileage Carreras are seeing classic car like appreciation and values. They're golden and they'll only keep going up. Other examples are manual (especially GT) cars, etc.

991's I liken to the 993's of the N/A 911's. Whether or not they see 993 like appreciation, if I'm looking at this like a stock, I think compared to other modern 911's; they'll depreciate the least going forward, stabilize the soonest, and appreciate the most, whenever they bottom out and start to go back up again. I can't say when that'll be, but eventually IMO it's already written (unless Porsche brings back N/A Carreras, then the "last of the N/A" magic will be moot and the car will just be judged on its own merit).

991.2 starts a new generation of 911, i.e the all turbo gen. So when 992's come out, nothing about the 991.2 will likely give the enthusiast market that "last of"/"one of a kind" type of effect, therefore it will have to only be judged on its own merit. 991.1's will always be the last of the N/A Carreras (the fastest N/A Carreras as even the Base 991.1 is faster than a 997 S, and arguable the best N/A Carreras). Therefore, in that respect, irreplaceable. If you look at historical 911 values, this is always a recipe for success.

Of course, this is speaking in car terms. Nobody is saying to buy a 991.1 to eventually make money on it (plenty of better things to get vastly quicker returns). BUT, if you're already buying a car, which is a depreciating asset, then looking at it like will you lose less with a 991.1 (which in its own way is like making money), and if you keep it for a very long time, will it eventually make you money back (or maybe more), is a more realistic approach, and where IMO the 991.1 will pay its dividends.

Also, in the future, people always like less complexity and less to go wrong. Not having to worry about two expensive turbos putting strain on an engine and/or needing replacement is something markets generally favor. As well, from what I understand, 991.1's have earned a reputation of being perhaps the most reliable 911's yet.
K-A is offline  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:45 AM
  #56  
Bemo
User
 
Bemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CT
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by randr View Post
Thats your view, quite probably based on how you utilise your own particular vehicle. Others clearly have different views based on how they use their vehicles

There are multiple solutions as to what constitutes, soul, personality and engagement.
Totally agreed! If I track it as you do, I'll probably find the turbo a lot more desirable since it's the more technologically-advanced and capable car.
Since I rip mostly on back roads, the current ride is a lot more car than I'll ever need.
Bemo is offline  
Old 09-29-2017, 07:21 AM
  #57  
cajerseyboy
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
cajerseyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 1,235
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

I say that I will be satisfied with my current 911 for years to come but, I don't know. I have said that with most of my cars and they are all gone now. Maybe the GTS will be different. Time will tell.

I know this about ME. I will always have a desire for more power and acceleration. I just picked up a Tesla Model X 100D. Not the P100D, just your standard 100D and the acceleration is mind blowing. No sound but it is still very invigorating.

Makes me think of what P will come up with in the future. Just think of Porsche handling with an electric motors torque. Similar performance of the 918 in a 911. That would be hard to pass up.

For now I love my GTS and will drive it until it doesn't do it for me and then I will move on to something else. Maybe a 992.2 GT3. I hear that will be the last of the N/A manuals.
cajerseyboy is offline  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:34 AM
  #58  
mrmojom3
User
 
mrmojom3's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Yes, I personally have no doubt this will be the case, and I think we already have seen it proven in how the market reacted to *every* 991.1 once the .2's came out (and the tepid market reaction to .2's in terms of its initial sales). .1's all of a sudden held their value to a level I haven't see on a modern mass produced car, and even started to appreciate. People who bought 991.1's a year or two ago could literally sell their cars for more, today. This is a precursor for the future, imo.

911's are very consistent in how they're valued in the future. Of course, rare models always get highest priority, then when it comes to more "normal" models; purer, "last of," more soulful generations always do better. For example, air cooled 911's which are far inferior to water cooled models in terms of performance, now are skyrocketing. Even base, high mileage Carreras are seeing classic car like appreciation and values. They're golden and they'll only keep going up. Other examples are manual (especially GT) cars, etc.

991's I liken to the 993's of the N/A 911's. Whether or not they see 993 like appreciation, if I'm looking at this like a stock, I think compared to other modern 911's; they'll depreciate the least going forward, stabilize the soonest, and appreciate the most, whenever they bottom out and start to go back up again. I can't say when that'll be, but eventually IMO it's already written (unless Porsche brings back N/A Carreras, then the "last of the N/A" magic will be moot and the car will just be judged on its own merit).

991.2 starts a new generation of 911, i.e the all turbo gen. So when 992's come out, nothing about the 991.2 will likely give the enthusiast market that "last of"/"one of a kind" type of effect, therefore it will have to only be judged on its own merit. 991.1's will always be the last of the N/A Carreras (the fastest N/A Carreras as even the Base 991.1 is faster than a 997 S, and arguable the best N/A Carreras). Therefore, in that respect, irreplaceable. If you look at historical 911 values, this is always a recipe for success.

Of course, this is speaking in car terms. Nobody is saying to buy a 991.1 to eventually make money on it (plenty of better things to get vastly quicker returns). BUT, if you're already buying a car, which is a depreciating asset, then looking at it like will you lose less with a 991.1 (which in its own way is like making money), and if you keep it for a very long time, will it eventually make you money back (or maybe more), is a more realistic approach, and where IMO the 991.1 will pay its dividends.

Also, in the future, people always like less complexity and less to go wrong. Not having to worry about two expensive turbos putting strain on an engine and/or needing replacement is something markets generally favor. As well, from what I understand, 991.1's have earned a reputation of being perhaps the most reliable 911's yet.
IMO this is logical and well written. And as a 991.1 GTS owner I hope correct

There was clearly a bump in 911.1 used prices this summer due to a number of factors which included a higher 991.2 price, seasonal (summertime), stock market wealth for middle class, and yes a new gen of 911's hitting the streets.

With that said, the "test" for the 991.1 GTS resale will be 1) when warranties are expired will values drop and people jump to a 991.2 w warranty 2) investments drop a bit so people feel less wealthy 3) its January and nobody is thinking about sports cars.

My 15 GTS $132k sticker 4k miles I picked up for under $100k. So this car still depreciated similar to other 991.1, however I think I got mine a bit under market value. I am assuming about 8% a year depreciation over the next 3 to 4 years. If it is less than 8% I'm pretty happy. 997 GTS are going in the $60k to $70k range, so basing on that. Will the 991.1 hold its value better, I dont know. I am curious to the comment above were a 991 GTS is selling for original list price in the UK?

I bought this car to drive it, not as an investment, but fingers crossed this market keeps strong for us owners. I've already done the math, buying a car like this to keep for 15 years in attempt to make money is a losing proposition (to me). Its also nice to buy into a brand, that seems to care about resale.

Last edited by mrmojom3; 09-29-2017 at 08:46 AM. Reason: sp
mrmojom3 is offline  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:43 AM
  #59  
K-A
Super User
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,197
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by mrmojom3 View Post
IMO this is logical and well written. And as a 991.1 GTS owner I hope correct

There was clearly a bump in 911.1 used prices this summer due to a number of factors which included a higher 991.2 price, seasonal (summertime), stock market wealth for middle class, and yes a new gen of 911's hitting the streets.

With that said, the "test" for the 991.1 generation will be 1) when warranties are expired will values drop and people jump to a 991.2 w warranty 2) investments drop a bit so people feel less wealthy 3) its January and nobody is thinking about sports cars.

My 15 GTS $132k sticker 4k miles I picked up for under $100k. So this car has depreciated, but slower than a non GTS. I am assuming about 8% a year depreciation over the next 3 to 4 years. If it is less than 8% I'm pretty happy. I bought this car to drive it, not as an investment, but fingers crossed this market keeps strong for us owners. Its also nice to buy into a brand, that seems to care about resale.
That's a great price you got as I see some .1 GTS's priced ridiculously, i.e near GT3 territory. With a .1 GTS, I think you're golden, my friend. It's the ultimate non-GT 991.1.

Yeah, out of warranty will be the test. That's when we'll see 991.1's start to assume depreciation, but all 911's go through this and eventually, when the .2's are out of warranty too, IMO is when we'll see .1 prices surpass them (maybe sooner, maybe later, who knows, but IMO the .1's in the future will absolutely surpass .2's). People seem to view the .1's as rock solid, minus the changeover valves, so that's a good start. Also, starting now, .1's will seem very simple and un-complicated (especially if or once 911's go EV + turbo).

Personally, I think the key will be that in the nearer term, 991.1's will find a fairly high, and solid depreciation floor, relatively speaking. Which will be a signal as to how the market is and will value it in the longer term.

And I agree big time, Porsche's history of treating the 911 with a long-term view, thus protecting resale, has been a huge aspect as to why and how it's regarded so legendarily and iconically. These days, at above $20K, Porsche is honestly the only manufacturer I will actually BUY a car from (literally buy) as they're the only ones who've proven they care about long term image, and resale. Most other brands have gone the short term corporate approach to leasing, then tossing their cars in the proverbial trash, which reflects majorly in their resale values.
K-A is offline  
Old 09-29-2017, 08:56 AM
  #60  
Dewinator
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Dewinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,059
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by KenTO View Post
How can you compare cars with different transmission setups? Couldn't they get 3 cars specced similarly?
They clearly used the boring PDK in the 991.1 to keep the competition close and prevent it from blowing the others out of the water.
Dewinator is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: GTS Showdown Results - Total 911


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: