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Cat - less may remove the obstacle of the cat altogether along with any reliability issues associated to AM premature cat failure (associated to inadequate design etc) but it will certainly remove the warranty and also has the implication of being totally illegal to boot. Not saying don't use one but there are nasty implications one needs to accept.
Having the dealer on side with warranty (as I have with my Europipe as well fwiw) only goes so far. My dealer has clearly advised that ANY alteration to the exhaust system, whether it be, removal of muffler/fitment of partial pipe (i.e. SW or others) or replacement of full system (EP and all others), will potentially invalidate the warranty on the engine and drive-line. Whilst they as a dealer may be satisfied it was explained that Porsche has a much stricter regime on warranty these days so it isn't the dealer you need to worry about.
Bottom line: Don't be fooled by the baffle-gabble going on with the warranty if you keep the stock cats. No matter what system or part thereof you choose to replace, it comes down to Porsche HQ and I'm told on good advice that their immediate response will be NO WARRANTY if they find out you have altered the system in any way. Then it is up to you to fight them on it and conclusively prove that your alteration had nothing to do with whatever failure arises.
He's #1 to deal with. Very straightforward no BS. I've bought 2 off him now. Stef and his brother Herman hand build each system inc the cats from scratch - do the lot themselves. When I bought my 997tt system it was like 2 to 3 days from the time I paid to get it to my door. Incredible service. I had to wait 2 weeks for my last EP though due to other orders in front of me but he won't let you down. These 2 guys are perfectionists and it really shows in the work. The way the thing fits like a glove to the thou is unbelievable. My dealer did the EP TTS install this time as I wanted them to be comfortable that the system would not compromise the car in any way and they were totally blown away with the whole thing..raving about it. Best to email Stef and ask him how long with xmas due. He wont pressure you in any way...just tells you how long and how much. The rest is left up to you.
PS turbofan1 dont worry with CELs. The EP cats will never do that like these others. Their cats are legit. They did their own smog tests and they were better than the OEM ones. I recall seeing Stef post them on 6 a while back too. Ask stef for the test data. I had my first EP on my 997tt for 3 years and have had my 2nd EP now on my tts for 20 months and both perfect. I think if you are paranoid just go the SW pipe but it has no mufflers so may well not sound as sweet. Try to get an audition on both if its all just about sound, as sound is very subjective. The EP sounds like a turbo PSE....has a real distinct raspy Porsche note with turbo whistle. I totally love mine. best thing I did for the car.
No worries - always happy to share my user experiences along with anything technical I have actual real knowledge and experience with, unlike a certain stalking baffle gabbler with a sore toe who clearly knows absolutely SFA about anything technically related least of all Porsche's own factory warranty limitations.
The cats are a key component of the exhaust system and it's not just ALL about creating more flow through by reducing the cel count/size. The sole purpose of the cat is to arrest emissions to a specific level, so if you have no test data to prove just how efficient your aftermarket cat actually is, then good chance it doesn't comply at all!
The insulation casing is there for two reasons: to bring the cat up to operating temp and, to keep it at that temp (which aids compliance) and, also to prevent against core damage from thermal shock. The core is very brittle and does not respond well to sudden expansion and contraction. Where the cats are located on this car directly off the back of the turbo at the rear underside of the car, they are completely exposed to the elements, so are very vulnerable to water splashing, snow etc - things which can cause a sudden temp drop/shock to the cat casing and cat core. The insulation jacket provides a defensive and protective shield against temperature shock to the catalyst core, hence why it is there. But of course to put the insulation jacket there costs money and requires expert skill and effort which is the most logical reason why virtually all AM systems don't have it. And no doubt they will say you don't need it
Now If flow is the only issue then remove the cat entirely, but then you have a serious legality issue if you get caught. The noisier the system the more likely you are going to draw attention to yourself and the authorities. So in that sense it pays to have a system that not only looks like it belongs on the car as being original equipment but also creates a sound at least in keeping with the brand even if it is more pronounced.
Cat - less may remove the obstacle of the cat altogether along with any reliability issues associated to AM premature cat failure (associated to inadequate design etc) but it will certainly remove the warranty and also has the implication of being totally illegal to boot. Not saying don't use one but there are nasty implications one needs to accept.
Having the dealer on side with warranty (as I have with my Europipe as well fwiw) only goes so far. My dealer has clearly advised that ANY alteration to the exhaust system, whether it be, removal of muffler/fitment of partial pipe (i.e. SW or others) or replacement of full system (EP and all others), will potentially invalidate the warranty on the engine and drive-line. Whilst they as a dealer may be satisfied it was explained that Porsche has a much stricter regime on warranty these days so it isn't the dealer you need to worry about.
Bottom line: Don't be fooled by the baffle-gabble going on with the warranty if you keep the stock cats. No matter what system or part thereof you choose to replace, it comes down to Porsche HQ and I'm told on good advice that their immediate response will be NO WARRANTY if they find out you have altered the system in any way. Then it is up to you to fight them on it and conclusively prove that your alteration had nothing to do with whatever failure arises.
You are 100% correct about the warranty. If there is a major failure such as an engine or PDK failure your dealer cannot help you when Porsche sends out its own person to investigate the cause of the failure. If you mod your car in terms of performance you should not expect the Porsche warranty to provide coverage
This is one of the major reasons why I had Champion Motorsports install my modifications and sell them to me. To my knowledge they are the only Porsche tuner in the United States that offers a warranty which matches the length of the Porsche warranty and covers consequential damage to original equipment Porsche parts caused by their installed mods. Given their stellar reputation they are not the kind of company that would walk away from their warranty.
It's always astounds me that on a $200,000 car more people don't care about having a warranty provide this kind of coverage when they modify their car.
Many opinions by many folks, AM exhaust sound is totally subjective.... but my vote is for Sharkwerks.
No drone (and MUCH less than the stock exhaust) at hwy cruise speed.
Just right aggressive sound under throttle and no CEL light that sometimes plagues exhaust with sport cats.
BONUS: Alex and the guys are great to deal with and offer full refund if you are not satisfied.
I have Sharkwerks and totally agree with 1Gunner. It is a great addition and not too pricey. I have heard TUBI - fantastic too!
Am I hearing that even if I leave the stock CAT alone and just replace the stock muffler with straight end pipes (such as sharkwerks) porsche will not honor their warranty? I'm confused by this because I asked the service guys at the Porsche dealer and they said that I should use the the stocks cats but replacing the muffler with sharkwerks is ok and will not impact the warranty. I do know that many Porsche dealers are installing these AM exhaust pipes into cars that are under warranty.
Am I hearing that even if I leave the stock CAT alone and just replace the stock muffler with straight end pipes (such as sharkwerks) porsche will not honor their warranty? I'm confused by this because I asked the service guys at the Porsche dealer and they said that I should use the the stocks cats but replacing the muffler with sharkwerks is ok and will not impact the warranty. I do know that many Porsche dealers are installing these AM exhaust pipes into cars that are under warranty.
I think the scenario is this: If you have some failure after the dealer installs something beyond the cats, they probably will not mention it when reporting the warranty claim to Porsche. In the rare but possible event that Porsche actually sends somebody to the dealership to look at the failure, they might notice the aftermarket exhaust and possibly try to say they won't cover the particular failure. That second situation is possible, but very unlikely, according to my dealer. I am not worried about it, knowing the dealer will go to bat for me, and Porsche has been pretty good to work with when I had a problem with newly installed replacement Porsche brake pads after a track day. (They paid to replace the pads after a known track day due to premature fracturing. Yea Porsche!!)
PS - Porsche employees regularly check out these forums btw, but they would never comment on something like this. Too bad, because we'd all love to hear from them.
I think the scenario is this: If you have some failure after the dealer installs something beyond the cats, they probably will not mention it when reporting the claim to Porsche. In the rare but possible event that Porsche actually sends somebody to the dealership to look at the failure, they might notice the aftermarket exhaust and try to say they won't cover the failure. That second situation is possible, but very unlikely, according to my dealer.
Scenario is if you have an engine or engine component failure (like a turbo etc) or any sort of drive-line failure and your car is found with anything aftermarket like what we are all talking about here then you are up **** creek. Forget what your dealer is telling you. For the dealer to get approval to do the repair under the warranty a regional rep (who operates at an arms length) will need to inspect the car first. If they or the dealer are called to plug the piwis and do a VAL which they will be, then that VAL is then sent to someone properly trained to read it, and if they find anything at all that has been plugged in to the OBD like a piggy back or something else that shows up on the VAL you up **** creek even further. As unlikely as everything can be painted, one needs to accept the harsh reality that all cards are on the table now. Things have changed over the past couple of years big time. Don't be fooled into believing otherwise. Best case is as sdg1871 says, have someone else provide the cover that is doing the mod. Not many are prepared to do that. And if it ain't in writing it doesn't exist.
Retaining the stock cats may be of benefit in a state like CA, as they have ID to show compliance to smog rules there but where Porsche HQ is concerned they don't give a toss about that. If you have altered the system after the cat all bets are still off with them (PHQ). If anyone's dealer is saying otherwise then get them to put it in writing for you. Mine won't.
Scenario is if you have an engine or engine component failure (like a turbo etc) or any sort of drive-line failure and your car is found with anything aftermarket like what we are all talking about here then you are up **** creek. Forget what your dealer is telling you. For the dealer to get approval to do the repair under the warranty a regional rep (who operates at an arms length) will need to inspect the car first. If they or the dealer are called to plug the piwis and do a VAL which they will be, then that VAL is then sent to someone properly trained to read it, and if they find anything at all that has been plugged in to the OBD like a piggy back or something else that shows up on the VAL you up **** creek even further. As unlikely as everything can be painted, one needs to accept the harsh reality that all cards are on the table now. Things have changed over the past couple of years big time. Don't be fooled into believing otherwise. Best case is as sdg1871 says, have someone else provide the cover that is doing the mod. Not many are prepared to do that. And if it ain't in writing it doesn't exist.
Retaining the stock cats may be of benefit in a state like CA, as they have ID to show compliance to smog rules there but where Porsche HQ is concerned they don't give a toss about that. If you have altered the system after the cat all bets are still off with them (PHQ). If anyone's dealer is saying otherwise then get them to put it in writing for you. Mine won't.
You are correct. Champion's warranty is set forth in this link. No other US tuner for Porsche does this:
For the dealer to get approval to do the repair under the warranty a regional rep (who operates at an arms length) will need to inspect the car first. If they or the dealer are called to plug the piwis and do a VAL which they will be, then that VAL is then sent to someone properly trained to read it, and if they find anything at all that has been plugged in to the OBD like a piggy back or something else that shows up on the VAL you up **** creek even further.
A factory rep comes to my dealer once every month or so, and rarely actually inspects any ongoing warranty repairs. The Sharkwerks system does not require the cats or CO2 sensors to be touched at all (except for the bolts), and will not show up in any factory system diagnostics downloads. Nobody needs to plug in to the OBD for a simple Sharkwerks exhaust.
A factory rep comes to my dealer once every month or so, and rarely actually inspects any ongoing warranty repairs. The Sharkwerks system does not require the cats or CO2 sensors to be touched at all (except for the bolts), and will not show up in any factory system diagnostics downloads. Nobody needs to plug in to the OBD for a simple Sharkwerks exhaust.
Randy the point I'm making is not to stop anyone buying any system they choose to buy over the next. My dealer loved my Europipe to pieces, were in awe with the cats and the overall construction and fit up, after making their own comparisons and evaluations said they were perfectly fine with it on all levels, just like you are hearing re your SW pipe BUT the dealer is not the governing body presiding over what gets approved or denied if/when things go pear shaped. My system doesn't show up in any downloads either, but does yours or mine alter any of the values as a consequence of any reduction in back-pressure over the stock system? From what I'm told techs at dealer level don't have the training to read the VAL and nothing gets past the VAL. You also have the case that someone independent from the dealer will inspect the car depending on instruction from HQ. But can you be sure they will not look at yours? Or, do a VAL, send it off to HQ and find something? I think we all just need to be realistic that there is always the chance you may get news you don't want to hear.
So, who should real Porsche TT/S owners trust and or believe....
Our dealers who have a vested interest in our business, continued support and the cars we actually own?
or...??
Good question. Answer found in link. This was just a ""pipe" too. So if HQ can a warranty over a pipe on a GT3 i'm sure they will can a pipe on a 991TTS as well.
Bottom line. Owner Intelligence doesn't really come into it where HQ is concerned. Porsche HQ has its stance so, Dealer assurances best need to be in writing, and signed by Directors and not your favorite sales guy or service tech. May come in handy if a 50K engine pops or a 25K PDK poops itself out of the blue. Much different than internally soaking up the costs of a RMS leak.
12-23-2015, 05:27 PM
