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Will be very interesting to compare the two cars back to back on the track. My driving style with the GT3 is fairly aggressive (car moves around a good bit), but I'm going to take my time learning how the TTS behaves on track.
I still need to figure out what to do with the PCCB brakes for the track. Tempted to get Surface Transforms carbon ceramics, but they’re $14k plus pads and labor, and not sure I want to spend that much until I’ve concluded that I’m comfortable with regularly tracking this car without installing a roll bar, track seats, and harnesses (which I’m very reluctant to do).
I track my Turbo regularly with the PCCB's for the last year and half. Done several Nasa and 7 PCA events as a DE3 and it's also my daily. After 25K miles my Pads are at 75%. Only thing I do on a yearly basis is a SRF flush otherwise the car has been flawless. Best part it doesn't go through tires like I thought it would for a AWD platform.
My impression is that, at MSRP and on equal tires, you tend to get what you pay for with Porsches in terms of performance. So it's not surprising that Turbo S is near the top in both performance and cost.
IMO: Switch to comfort pressure partial load: 31 front, 36 rear (and then just keep it below 165 mph if you have a passenger and two weeks of luggage packed,)
Ride will be better and you’ll have more warm/hot grip.
Some folks ‘round here run even a bit lower.
Hey Dave - this comfort pressure setting - do you have to do anything (on PCM or anything?) or do you just fill the tires to those levels?
Hey Dave - this comfort pressure setting - do you have to do anything (on PCM or anything?) or do you just fill the tires to those levels?
In the settings screen on the dash, for tires there's a comfort pressure box to click. That will prevent the car from telling you the tire pressure is too low.
I did a back to back road test comparison of my 991.1 GT3 and 991.2 TTS.
Drove the GT3 first. Starting it up, it sounds and feels like a race car with rattling and shakes. Ride quality is pretty good in normal mode, considering how planted the car is on track in that mode. Handling is pretty sharp. Brakes are fine. The car is very fast, but you need to get to mid revs to start getting some real torque and power, and at that point the engine is loud and screamy, in a way that I find too intense on the road (but love it on the track). Because of the need to keep revs high, I feel the need to drive in manual mode for spirited driving. Did I enjoy it on the road? Not really - too much of a race car demeanor, which feels suited for the track much more than the road.
Next I drove the TTS. The difference to the GT3 is stark. Starting the car, it's quieter and calmer, but has some bass which tells you there's something back there. Getting the car moving, the ride and steering feels a lot more velvety and luxurious than the GT3. Squeezing the throttle a little, it's immediately apparent that there's a lot more torque on tap, starting at relatively low revs. The TTS feels about the same size as the GT3, but feels more 'solid' overall. The TTS is 10% heavier, and I suppose I can notice some difference, but it doesn't feel like a significant difference (at least on the road). Brakes feel a lot more precise and powerful than the GT3, but the GT3 is running track pads, so a somewhat unfair comparison. Getting the TTS really going, it feels much more powerful and fast than the GT3, and it inspires so much confidence because the handling, while not as 'sharp' as the GT3, is just as stable, and the AWD does an amazing job of putting the power down without any worries about either understeer or the back stepping out. Another noteworthy difference is the seats: while the sport buckets in the GT3 are meant to hold you in, I actually feel held in better with the 18-way TTS seats because I can make the side bolsters as snug as a want, whereas I have more of a gap with the sport buckets. The other obvious difference is that the interior of the TTS is much more luxurious and laden with creature comforts as compared the fairly stripped down GT3.
Bottom line: while the GT3 is a fantastic car on track and can be fun on the road in a 'race car for the road' way, for a spirited road drive, 19 times out of 20 I would reach for the keys to the TTS before the GT3. Should be able to find out in a few weeks how they compare on track.
…19 times out of 20 I would reach for the keys to the TTS...
Well, boys and girls, I think we’ve got us another convert.
The 991 TT - in terms of what it is today - owes a lot to the 928. The 991 TT is today what the 928 was back then in comparison to the other Porsches of their respective days.
I did a back to back road test comparison of my 991.1 GT3 and 991.2 TTS.
Drove the GT3 first. Starting it up, it sounds and feels like a race car with rattling and shakes. Ride quality is pretty good in normal mode, considering how planted the car is on track in that mode. Handling is pretty sharp. Brakes are fine. The car is very fast, but you need to get to mid revs to start getting some real torque and power, and at that point the engine is loud and screamy, in a way that I find too intense on the road (but love it on the track). Because of the need to keep revs high, I feel the need to drive in manual mode for spirited driving. Did I enjoy it on the road? Not really - too much of a race car demeanor, which feels suited for the track much more than the road.
Next I drove the TTS. The difference to the GT3 is stark. Starting the car, it's quieter and calmer, but has some bass which tells you there's something back there. Getting the car moving, the ride and steering feels a lot more velvety and luxurious than the GT3. Squeezing the throttle a little, it's immediately apparent that there's a lot more torque on tap, starting at relatively low revs. The TTS feels about the same size as the GT3, but feels more 'solid' overall. The TTS is 10% heavier, and I suppose I can notice some difference, but it doesn't feel like a significant difference (at least on the road). Brakes feel a lot more precise and powerful than the GT3, but the GT3 is running track pads, so a somewhat unfair comparison. Getting the TTS really going, it feels much more powerful and fast than the GT3, and it inspires so much confidence because the handling, while not as 'sharp' as the GT3, is just as stable, and the AWD does an amazing job of putting the power down without any worries about either understeer or the back stepping out. Another noteworthy difference is the seats: while the sport buckets in the GT3 are meant to hold you in, I actually feel held in better with the 18-way TTS seats because I can make the side bolsters as snug as a want, whereas I have more of a gap with the sport buckets. The other obvious difference is that the interior of the TTS is much more luxurious and laden with creature comforts as compared the fairly stripped down GT3.
Bottom line: while the GT3 is a fantastic car on track and can be fun on the road in a 'race car for the road' way, for a spirited road drive, 19 times out of 20 I would reach for the keys to the TTS before the GT3. Should be able to find out in a few weeks how they compare on track.
I'd be interested in your feedback on track. From my experience driving with GT3's on track, it's an interesting concept to see an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. The GT3 is a track car - the Turbo is designed to cross continents comfortably and quickly. I've frequently said that I like being the weird Turbo guy amongst a sea of GT3's and running with them if not running them down. As a guy who tracks a Turbo, i always feel like i'm stepping into a GT3's world and to be able to challenge and in most cases, even show up a GT3 on their home turf, is satisfying.
Some areas of comparison that I truly appreciate with both cars are having spent time on track together are:
1) Braking - The GT3 can brake so much deeper. I'll be heading into a hard braking zone behind one and boy do those brake lights come on late! Granted, I'm much heavier and at least 5-10mph faster which means i have to back the braking points up a bit anyway, it's a riot watching them brake deep. The gap begins building right here.
2) Corner speed - the GT3 can roll more speed into a corner. If I try to carry the same amount of speed in, the front tires will fight me. This gives a slight turn in understeer and depending on the corner, might not penalize you too much. I look for car positioning and getting the car settled into a rotation here while the GT3 picks up another half-car length. I focus on settling the front end and getting the car pointed slightly tighter at the apex - really with the intent of getting all of my steering angle out of the way here.
3) Corner exit - assuming the GT3 is settled into the corner rolling with speed, it's working it's way back into the powerband. If I've got the steering done and the noise pointed tighter on the inside, this is where the TT just takes over. While the GT3 is "walking the tight rope here" and trying to apply the power, I can drop Thor's hammer in the TT with it's traction advantage. The understeer is no longer a threat here as when the power comes down, the corner opens up. This does get complicated through a set of esses i.e. WGI/VIR as managing the weight and pointing the nose to each subsequent apex requires a delicate balance whereas the GT3 just picks up speed apex after apex. In this circumstance, you won't get back to your advantage until the last ess. GT3's pick up half a car length at a time heading into the WGI esses but the gap is gone as we arrive into the braking point into the bus stop.
I think the GT3's high wire acrobatics are much more fun (who doesn't like a car or a woman that will try and kill you?) but there's a reason why demolition is the most fun any construction project; swinging a really big hammer and just destroying things are a blast.
Drive' on~
Drove the TTS today at ~35 F temp, damp roads, Pilot Sport 4S tires. I didn't try to find any limits, but the car never got close to them even with somewhat spirited driving. Impressive. I'm really liking AWD!
I will be interested in your thoughts once you compare the two cars on a track. On public roads, the turbo is the better handler up to maybe 7 or 8/10ths, as corrections can more easily be fed in with the greater torque of the turbo, but on a track at 8/10ths and above, I predict you’ll find the GT3 the better handler. At those higher limits, the confidence-inspiring AWD seems to lose its composure and can’t decide where to send the power. What I get is understeer followed by somewhat unpredictable oversteer. But it could be that I just need different technique for track driving. That said, I found it difficult to turn in my turbo for a GT3 because the turbo is such a great car at everything else.
They are two completely different cars. I have been driving a modified, high HP Porsche turbo since the the 993 turbo up to my current 991.2 turbo S with every bolt-on power mod available and DSC controller and loving them. I was bitten by the GT3 bug about a year and a half ago and recently purchased a 991.2 GT3 RS. I use my cars for enjoyment on the street, mostly mountain or back country roads, simply for the joy of driving. They are not daily drivers for me, not track cars, but rather specific cars for an entertaining driving day or event. I do take the turbo to the office on several days per year, but drive an SUV most days. To me, after driving the GT3, whenever I get in the turbo, I can feel the weight, the turbo feels much heavier, the seating position is much higher, the shifting is a little duller and the car feels softer and floaty. Again, this is in comparison to the GT3, but in comparison, it feels like a very, very nice and fast luxury car. It is certainly a rocket from a dig, which is entertaining, but the RS with 520 HP and a 500 lb. weight advantage is no slouch either and has an abundance of power for a street car. So, when I change cars, I find myself very aware of these factors and always yearning for the lower seating position of the GT3 (the GT3 LWBS's sit you much closer to the ground), the more direct suspension feedback, the lightweight nimble feel, the connected to the road steering wheel feedback, not to mention the 9,000 RPM sound track of the GT3. Driving the GT3 Is a great event. The higher torque and additional power of the turbo is fantastic, entertaining and fun in it's own way, but overall, I still prefer the GT3, if I want a thrilling, eventful ride. For me, it's a lot more exciting, involving and entertaining to drive, when the goal is a fun drive. As an every day car, the turbo is great, but if the goal is to go out with friends and have fun, the GT3 is hard to beat. Screaming at 9,000 RPM's, connected to the road through the GT3 suspension and firing off quick PDK shifts is just an epic, very special experience. Both are great automobiles and I am keeping both for that reason, but IMO, the GT3 is a bit more fun to operate on a sporty drive. It never leaves me wishing it did anything differently. Just perfection - Porsche got it very right on the 991.2 GT3.
They are two completely different cars. I have been driving a modified, high HP Porsche turbo since the the 993 turbo up to my current 991.2 turbo S with every bolt-on power mod available and DSC controller and loving them. I was bitten by the GT3 bug about a year and a half ago and recently purchased a 991.2 GT3 RS. I use my cars for enjoyment on the street, mostly mountain or back country roads, simply for the joy of driving. They are not daily drivers for me, not track cars, but rather specific cars for an entertaining driving day or event. I do take the turbo to the office on several days per year, but drive an SUV most days. To me, after driving the GT3, whenever I get in the turbo, I can feel the weight, the turbo feels much heavier, the seating position is much higher, the shifting is a little duller and the car feels softer and floaty. Again, this is in comparison to the GT3, but in comparison, it feels like a very, very nice and fast luxury car. It is certainly a rocket from a dig, which is entertaining, but the RS with 520 HP and a 500 lb. weight advantage is no slouch either and has an abundance of power for a street car. So, when I change cars, I find myself very aware of these factors and always yearning for the lower seating position of the GT3 (the GT3 LWBS's sit you much closer to the ground), the more direct suspension feedback, the lightweight nimble feel, the connected to the road steering wheel feedback, not to mention the 9,000 RPM sound track of the GT3. Driving the GT3 Is a great event. The higher torque and additional power of the turbo is fantastic, entertaining and fun in it's own way, but overall, I still prefer the GT3, if I want a thrilling, eventful ride. For me, it's a lot more exciting, involving and entertaining to drive, when the goal is a fun drive. As an every day car, the turbo is great, but if the goal is to go out with friends and have fun, the GT3 is hard to beat. Screaming at 9,000 RPM's, connected to the road through the GT3 suspension and firing off quick PDK shifts is just an epic, very special experience. Both are great automobiles and I am keeping both for that reason, but IMO, the GT3 is a bit more fun to operate on a sporty drive. It never leaves me wishing it did anything differently. Just perfection - Porsche got it very right on the 991.2 GT3.
I’m coming to the view that how we experience these cars on the road is highly influenced by whether we have track experience and how much of it.
Also depends on the roads available for us to drive on. I don’t have any canyon or mountain roads in my area. I have country roads which are pretty good driving roads, but there are plenty of blind corners and hills, as well as driveways and intersecting roads, so these aren’t roads where high speeds can be sustained for a long distance, and you have to slow down quite a bit for the blind corners and hills (I’ve often encountered something slow on the other side).
I’ve done about 250 track days, with about 100 of them in my GT3, and I continue to find the GT3 a joy to drive on the track when it’s driven near the limit. When I back it to 7 or 8 tenths on track, it becomes somewhat boring, like it’s being underdriven. On the road, I don’t drive any car beyond 7/10ths (which is still very fast relative to speed limits), so the boredom I experience on track at 7/10ths translates to similar boredom on the road, mixed with the stress of the hazards of driving fast on public roads where you can have an accident, get a ticket, or worse. The other problem is that by the time I get the revs up and get some power, I’m already going too fast and it’s time to slow down again.
By contrast, on the road I enjoy the power of the TTS because it allows for gratifying bursts of acceleration where it’s safe to do so, without having to wind the car to high revs. I also enjoy the unflappable AWD handling and braking of the TTS, which inspires confidence and I think adds a real measure of safety. And I like the comfort too.
If I had never driven any car on track, I suspect that my comparison of the cars might be similar to yours, with the GT car feeling and sounding more ‘racy’, but knowing what the GT feels like near the limit makes the experience of the driving it on the road kind of like listening to rock music with the volume too low.
That makes sense, for my situation the GT3 seems to work very well. I use it pretty much for dedicated special drives and I love it every time. It's a great car to have in the garage and provides a very good alternative experience to the turbo. The GT3 is a lot more work to drive, all that feedback and focus is tiring, but in a very good way. It's like going skiing for a day. The turbo does everything effortlessly. I like them both, but lean towards the GT3 for the good drives. For a non track person, its a thrilling change of pace. And we have great roads where I am, too, which makes a difference. Anyhow, both are great cars and I enjoy and appreciate them both for what they are...
02-21-2023, 11:25 AM
