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How 'special' is the new GT2RS engine really?

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Old 07-11-2017, 04:49 PM
  #91  
neanicu
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:55 PM
  #92  
Kobalt
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Originally Posted by GrantG
A 1969 911 (912) with carbon body panels and PCCB's is a FAR lighter car than a 964. And Pete has a 6speed gearbox.

Build thread in his signature here: https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-...9-gt3-cup.html
Love how Petes thread begins:

"I often lurk here and occasionally post and get good advice, but I rarely have much to contribute..."

Not much to contribute..
Old 07-11-2017, 05:23 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Petevb
It's actually a 4:1 R&P from a 993 cup car, should get you to right around .95 Gs and then I think our math is aligned. No question you've still got me for low end torque... until I can find coin to spring for the 4.0L upgrade, anyway


One more thing to consider about the 991 GT2RS performance, based on the speedometer seen in the launch video, and subject to visual errors:

End ratios factoring the 21" tire sizes:

2nd. Gear end ratio, close to 991 TT
3rd. Gear ~22% taller than 991 TT
4th. Gear ~15% taller than 991 TT

It looks like Porsche engineers have opted for taller 3rd-4th gears, to make the power more usable on the track, and this will add to the lag factor.
Old 07-11-2017, 06:51 PM
  #94  
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I'm willing to bet the low compression, big turbo, tall geared, non-linear, laggy, heavy, piece of overpriced crap is actually one bad a$$ car! I can't wait for mine!
Old 07-11-2017, 07:04 PM
  #95  
Petevb
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Originally Posted by Jean


One more thing to consider about the 991 GT2RS performance, based on the speedometer seen in the launch video, and subject to visual errors:

End ratios factoring the 21" tire sizes:

2nd. Gear end ratio, close to 991 TT
3rd. Gear ~22% taller than 991 TT
4th. Gear ~15% taller than 991 TT

It looks like Porsche engineers have opted for taller 3rd-4th gears, to make the power more usable on the track, and this will add to the lag factor.
According to the datasheets it's got a rear end swap for a shorter final drive. Not sure if this is correct or not, but what's published:

GT2 RS:

1st gear 3.91
2nd gear 2.29
3rd gear 1.58
4th gear 1.18
5th gear 0.94
6th gear 0.79
7th gear 0.67
Total transmission ratio RA 3.96

Turbo

1st gear 3.91
2nd gear 2.29
3rd gear 1.58
4th gear 1.18
5th gear 0.94
6th gear 0.79
7th gear 0.62
Final drive ratio, rear axle 3.44
Old 07-11-2017, 07:14 PM
  #96  
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Interesting: 15% lower overall gearing from Ring & Pinion, 8% lower 7th Gear, and 5.5% higher overall gearing due to 21" rear tire in RS.

Last edited by GrantG; 07-11-2017 at 07:32 PM.
Old 07-11-2017, 09:09 PM
  #97  
Petevb
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Originally Posted by GrantG
Interesting: 15% lower overall gearing from Ring & Pinion, 8% lower 7th Gear, and 5.5% higher overall gearing due to 21" rear tire in RS.
3% higher redline. Peak power 9% higher (7k vs 6.4), makes sense that they'd shorten the ratio particularly if they are aiming for top speed around peak power in 7th.

However I don't think I believe that final drive ratio- what gear combo gives you 3.96:1? I'm betting that's a misprint. It's geared incredibly short if it's even roughly correct, just about the same as my old 944 Turbos. With PDK why not? It'd be a monster...
Old 07-11-2017, 11:23 PM
  #98  
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To what Pete has been discussing in regards to turbo lag:

(turbo talk begins @ 4:40, and graphing turbo lag starts at 6:40)





Btw, (I only have a 964 C2) I recently installed the function first transmission mount and can't believe how much more responsive the car feels. Every micro movement of the throttle (on or off) is immediately felt and I feel like the car is much more drivable (exploitable!) at the limit. It's such a simple mod that I still can't believe how it has changed the car's dynamics. The on/off throttle response feels amazing (especially for a 27 yr old car) which allows me to really throw the car around with confidence (remember I only have ABS to catch my ****) and what all 911s need to really have fun with their character.
Old 07-12-2017, 03:41 AM
  #99  
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You are right that 3.96 mathametically I can't see existing in a ring and pinion. There is no teeth combination that yields 3.96 that is mechanically reasonable in a ring and pinion.

However, the spec says "total transmission ratio RA [rear axle]" not "final drive, rear axle."

Maybe it is marketing .... and not a typo??? I tried all the math I could to get to 3.96. Not quite right. Those days of doing crawl ratios on 4x4s have let me down.
Old 07-12-2017, 07:05 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Petevb
According to the datasheets it's got a rear end swap for a shorter final drive. Not sure if this is correct or not, but what's published:

GT2 RS:

1st gear 3.91
2nd gear 2.29
3rd gear 1.58
4th gear 1.18
5th gear 0.94
6th gear 0.79
7th gear 0.67
Total transmission ratio RA 3.96

Turbo

1st gear 3.91
2nd gear 2.29
3rd gear 1.58
4th gear 1.18
5th gear 0.94
6th gear 0.79
7th gear 0.62
Final drive ratio, rear axle 3.44
So I was waaay off from what I guessed through the video. Isn't the 991 GT3 final drive 3.97?
Old 07-12-2017, 07:12 AM
  #101  
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there are not many good posts in pff.de but this one could fit in here:



from Horst aka Speedhunter:

GERMAN

Grundsätzlich ist die Wasseraufspritzung auf Ladeluftkühler kein schlechter Ansatz:

Jetzt schaut man sich mal in einer Modellrechnung 991 GT2 RS an: Das Auto hat um 2.7 bar ( absoluter Druck ) vor
Eingang des Ladeluftkühlers und bei 30 Grad Außentemperatur ( 303 K ) dann etwa 130 Grad ( 403K) vor Ladeluftkühlereingang und am Ausgang dann 65 Grad, wir arbeiten im Modell. und am Ladeluftkühlerausgang seien 65 Grad oder 338 K.

Nun schaut man sich zunächst die Kühlleistung an der Ladeluftkühler ( ohne Wasseraufspritzung ).
Bei 700 PS benötigt der 991 GT2 RS etwa 550 g Luftmasse pro Sekunde, der von den Ladeluftkühlern abgeführte Wärmestrom ist dann: Wärmestrom = Luftmassenstrom x spezifische Wärmekapazität der Luft x Temperaturdifferenz.
Also : 0.55 kg /s x 1005 J/( kg x k) x ( 130-65) = 36 kW

( die " 1005 J/kg x K " sind dann spezifische Wärmekapazität der Luft bei um 2.7 bar Absolutdruck)


Nun sind 65 Grad der DME zu hoch und die Wasseraufspritzung soll auf 45 Grad Ladelufttemperatur
kühlen, dann muss die Wassereinspritzung etwa 5 ml pro Sekunde aufspritzen beim 991 GT2 RS . Falls Interesse besteht, kann ich die 5 ccm pro Sekunde auch begründen, die Wasseraufsprühung bringt dann um 5-10 kW Kühlleistung beim 991 GT 2 RS. Statt 36 kW dann etwa um 45 kW.

Die Wasseraufspritzung auf die LLK ist ok, kennt man schon seit zig Jahren ( Lancia Integrale Evo/ Subaru) aber letzdendlich sind Wasserverbrauch bei 2 LLK um 100-150 ml pro Minute zu hoch.
Idealerweise verdampft das Wasser sofort auf dem Ladeluftkühler, das geht natürlich nicht und man hat Wirkungsgradverluste.

Die echte Wassereinspritzung hat um Faktor 5 höheren Wirkungsgrad als Wasseraufspritzung aber auch ein M4 GTS ( Wassereinspritzung hat da Bosch entwickelt) braucht im Volllastbereich etwa 0.3 l Wasser auf 1 l Benzin.

Wasser kann 2.258 J pro Gramm und Kelvin dem Ladeluftkühler theoretisch entziehen bei vollständiger Verdampfung, bei einer geforderten Kühlleistung um 10 kW reichen dann im Idealfall so um 5 ml/s Aufsprühung von Wasser pro Sekunde.

Wer an Beschleunigungsrennen wie SSC 50/1000 mit Warteschleifen vor dem Start teilnimmt, dann durchaus empfehlenswert.

Idealerweise verdampft das Wasser direkt auf dem Ladeluftkühler, dann hat man den höchsten Wirkungsgrad, viel, viel höher als bei Wasserkühlung.
Zuviel Wasser ist dann kontraproduktiv, das überschüssige Wasser wirkt dann auf dem Ladelzftkühler wie ein Isolator und kann dann unterm Strich schlechter sein als Luft- Luft - Kühlung.

Porsche wird das schon gut gemacht haben beim 991 GT2 RS, die Entlüftung der LLK am Heck kann dann auch nochmal Vorteile haben.

Aber unterm Strich ist die Wasseraufspritzung dann fraglich, 10- 20 Grad geringere Ladelufttemperatur für 10 - 20 Minuten sind dann doch ungenügend, sodass Wasseraufspritzung schon tot war und
Porsche hat das wieder ausgegraben...


GERMAN




conclusion:

to reach 10KW better cooling - around 5ml water per second have to be applied in the case of the air flow on the 991 GT2RS
the 5l tank will last around 15min on full throttle.

the M4GTS Bosch System (injection into the air/fuel mix (not on the intercooler as on the 991GT2RS)) is around 5 times more effective in terms of bringing temperature down. But needs also 0,3l water on 1l fuel during full load...


my statement:
that the water do not have to be distilled in any case as it is on the BMW M4GTS - is for me the only advantage - if we compare those two systems.



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