OT: LT Spider #908, and 911R thread
12-28-2016, 03:42 PM
#92
It is my understanding that in other countries, including Canada, the 918 VIP program doesn't exist. That means it's up to the distributor and dealer who would get an allocation. And I know of some BS happening in Europe as well when it was up to the dealers.
Four years ago getting a limited to 600 4.0 RS was no problem. The world changed. The economy changed. The car collecting thing changed. Have you been to large Cars 'n Coffee lately? Back then PCNA made a marketing decision in order to sell 918s' in the U.S. I don't think they or anyone else could foresee that a short time later there would be a line out the door for cars they couldn't sell. Now they have to live with it. I also believe that there are some potential legal implications. What do they do with the guy that "flips" his R but still has his 918? This has happened. Or what about a guy that gives, not sells, his R allocation to someone else? This has happened. PCNA is not the Justice Department. I know they are doing their best under the circumstances.
Then there's the supercar buyer v good loyal Porsche customer. Yes, some 918 guys are just supercar, super yacht, super plane buyers and not Porsche customers. But some are us!
Then there was the argument of how many people would even want a MT coupe with no sunroof. The politics is so out of control that I often have to separate the "911R" icon from the car sitting in the garage.
I'm not a 918 owner. I have owned over 50 Porsche's (mostly new) over the past 38 years. I keep and drive my cars. I loaned PCNA my 959 for Rennsport III when there were very few 959s' in the U.S. I had a deposit on the R for since the end of 2013. I am and have been a very good customer even in the "crisis" (as PAG still calls it) of the early '90's. I only drive manual transmission cars, including my pick-up truck. I don't flip and I turned down an early 991 GT3 RS when I knew there was a $100k upside. And still I know how fortunate I was to get a car.
And to CJ's point about other cars and the Porsche experience. We're all different but I can't express enough how much I love the 981 Spyder. They were being discounted when they were available. No line. No list. No premium. Try one on a beautiful autumn day on Colorado 141 from Grand Junction to Cortez with the top down. The Porsche experience doesn't get much better than this.
Four years ago getting a limited to 600 4.0 RS was no problem. The world changed. The economy changed. The car collecting thing changed. Have you been to large Cars 'n Coffee lately? Back then PCNA made a marketing decision in order to sell 918s' in the U.S. I don't think they or anyone else could foresee that a short time later there would be a line out the door for cars they couldn't sell. Now they have to live with it. I also believe that there are some potential legal implications. What do they do with the guy that "flips" his R but still has his 918? This has happened. Or what about a guy that gives, not sells, his R allocation to someone else? This has happened. PCNA is not the Justice Department. I know they are doing their best under the circumstances.
Then there's the supercar buyer v good loyal Porsche customer. Yes, some 918 guys are just supercar, super yacht, super plane buyers and not Porsche customers. But some are us!
Then there was the argument of how many people would even want a MT coupe with no sunroof. The politics is so out of control that I often have to separate the "911R" icon from the car sitting in the garage.
I'm not a 918 owner. I have owned over 50 Porsche's (mostly new) over the past 38 years. I keep and drive my cars. I loaned PCNA my 959 for Rennsport III when there were very few 959s' in the U.S. I had a deposit on the R for since the end of 2013. I am and have been a very good customer even in the "crisis" (as PAG still calls it) of the early '90's. I only drive manual transmission cars, including my pick-up truck. I don't flip and I turned down an early 991 GT3 RS when I knew there was a $100k upside. And still I know how fortunate I was to get a car.
And to CJ's point about other cars and the Porsche experience. We're all different but I can't express enough how much I love the 981 Spyder. They were being discounted when they were available. No line. No list. No premium. Try one on a beautiful autumn day on Colorado 141 from Grand Junction to Cortez with the top down. The Porsche experience doesn't get much better than this.
12-28-2016, 09:09 PM
#94
Drifting
You don't get the "moaning" because you had a guaranteed spot via the VIP program. I'd be curious how you'd feel if there was no VIP program and you wanted an R but Porsche denied you. I could care less about the R, but what I do care about is the BS that the VIP program created, especially with dealers and their games. I would argue that the majority of 918 owners wouldn't have even thought twice about buying a GT4 and/or RS so all the VIP program did for those cars was suck hundreds of allocations out of real buyers and became nothing more than flips. It'll be a rinse and repeat with the .2GT3, GT2RS, and all other GT cars for the next 8 years.
Oh, I know of two 918 owners and neither of them have bought more than 1-2 Porsches a year other than GT cars so not sure about your "a lot" of 918 owners buying 4-5 Porsches a year assumption because Porsche doesn't come out with 4-5 new cars every year (I'm sure there are some).
Let me ask you this....in your opinion, who should receive an allocation for a car like an R (assuming there was no VIP program). A customer who has bought 1-2 Porsches per year for a decade or two at their local dealer OR a 918 owner who's new/newer to buying Porsches? The first customer should get the at the first bite of the R apple, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately, many of those non-918 guys buying 1-2 cars a each not only got got shut out of getting an R but also their dealer morphed into a stealer and wanted to sell an RS to them at a "market" price instead of MSRP. That's the really sad part because those guys have earned getting their GT cars at MSRP.
Oh, I know of two 918 owners and neither of them have bought more than 1-2 Porsches a year other than GT cars so not sure about your "a lot" of 918 owners buying 4-5 Porsches a year assumption because Porsche doesn't come out with 4-5 new cars every year (I'm sure there are some).
Let me ask you this....in your opinion, who should receive an allocation for a car like an R (assuming there was no VIP program). A customer who has bought 1-2 Porsches per year for a decade or two at their local dealer OR a 918 owner who's new/newer to buying Porsches? The first customer should get the at the first bite of the R apple, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately, many of those non-918 guys buying 1-2 cars a each not only got got shut out of getting an R but also their dealer morphed into a stealer and wanted to sell an RS to them at a "market" price instead of MSRP. That's the really sad part because those guys have earned getting their GT cars at MSRP.
If you look at the current value of 918s, yes, the demand for more than 918 cars existed at the very end, especially when the reviews came out and 918 performed really well compared to the other Hypercars. The Vip program was created to incentivize the us dealers because of what happened with PCNA and the CGT. It's a contract that PCNA offered. Everyone was offered the opportunity to buy a 918 and be a part of the Vip program. Where were the guys who are complaining about not getting a R allocation then? Where were they when people like me who shelled out 200k on deposit when the potential for the 918 to depreciate like a CGT was a very real possibility but we still went ahead and supported Porsche? People have very short term memories I'm afraid.
Without the Vip program, people would still complaint because the level of demand for these GT Porsches has gone up significantly. If you think buying 10 boxsters/cayenne/panamera in 10 years is the same thing as buying 1 CGT and 1 918 in 10 years, then you need a reality check. Suitcase here has a 959 and other interesting cars I'm sure, so he is a serious customer in PCNA's eyes. CJ is a public figure and owns a Mclaren dealership. PCNA ain't stupid and sometimes it's about what the individual customer can do for them as well. Many of the 918/CGT/959 owners are very influential, so granting an allocation goes both ways.
12-28-2016, 09:19 PM
#95
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I have no problem with the VIP program itself but if you want to do something like that it's probably a good idea to produce enough cars that you don't screw your long-term GT customers in the process.
12-28-2016, 09:26 PM
#96
Drifting
Difference is long-term GT customers that wanted RS 4.0 generally were able to get one - myself, Trakcar, Mooty, all were able to secure allocations. This time around nada and it was because of VIP.
I have no problem with the VIP program itself but if you want to do something like that it's probably a good idea to produce enough cars that you don't screw your long-term GT customers in the process.
I have no problem with the VIP program itself but if you want to do something like that it's probably a good idea to produce enough cars that you don't screw your long-term GT customers in the process.
12-28-2016, 10:42 PM
#97
Buddy, you have no idea what the majority of the 918 owners has in their collection. Same thing goes to CGT and 959 owners. You think 918/CGT/959 owners are just regular Joe who leases all their cars? I personally know 7 918/CGT/959 owners in the US who has over 30 Porsches in their collection right now. Also, there are quite a few guys here in the US who owns multiple 918s.
If you look at the current value of 918s, yes, the demand for more than 918 cars existed at the very end, especially when the reviews came out and 918 performed really well compared to the other Hypercars. The Vip program was created to incentivize the us dealers because of what happened with PCNA and the CGT. It's a contract that PCNA offered. Everyone was offered the opportunity to buy a 918 and be a part of the Vip program. Where were the guys who are complaining about not getting a R allocation then? Where were they when people like me who shelled out 200k on deposit when the potential for the 918 to depreciate like a CGT was a very real possibility but we still went ahead and supported Porsche? People have very short term memories I'm afraid.
Without the Vip program, people would still complaint because the level of demand for these GT Porsches has gone up significantly. If you think buying 10 boxsters/cayenne/panamera in 10 years is the same thing as buying 1 CGT and 1 918 in 10 years, then you need a reality check. Suitcase here has a 959 and other interesting cars I'm sure, so he is a serious customer in PCNA's eyes. CJ is a public figure and owns a Mclaren dealership. PCNA ain't stupid and sometimes it's about what the individual customer can do for them as well. Many of the 918/CGT/959 owners are very influential, so granting an allocation goes both ways.
If you look at the current value of 918s, yes, the demand for more than 918 cars existed at the very end, especially when the reviews came out and 918 performed really well compared to the other Hypercars. The Vip program was created to incentivize the us dealers because of what happened with PCNA and the CGT. It's a contract that PCNA offered. Everyone was offered the opportunity to buy a 918 and be a part of the Vip program. Where were the guys who are complaining about not getting a R allocation then? Where were they when people like me who shelled out 200k on deposit when the potential for the 918 to depreciate like a CGT was a very real possibility but we still went ahead and supported Porsche? People have very short term memories I'm afraid.
Without the Vip program, people would still complaint because the level of demand for these GT Porsches has gone up significantly. If you think buying 10 boxsters/cayenne/panamera in 10 years is the same thing as buying 1 CGT and 1 918 in 10 years, then you need a reality check. Suitcase here has a 959 and other interesting cars I'm sure, so he is a serious customer in PCNA's eyes. CJ is a public figure and owns a Mclaren dealership. PCNA ain't stupid and sometimes it's about what the individual customer can do for them as well. Many of the 918/CGT/959 owners are very influential, so granting an allocation goes both ways.
Unfortunately many of the folks that would love to have and can afford an R today weren't able to afford buying a 918 when they were still available. Had I known the games and flipping going on now, I would have asked someone that I know to buy a 918 with me backstopping him on any drop in value in exchange for getting all future allocations (even though he's not a car guy at all).
I'm smart enough to know that the more money that you have, the more power and influence you have. It takes money makes money and having risks provides opportunities to reap rewards. Most of the 918 owners would have gotten any allocation they wanted without the VIP program so there was no need for it in my opinion. All the VIP program has magnified the games, flipping, and BS that goes on today which is the most frustrating part. The fact that there are probably over 50 Rs in the US that have been or are in the process of getting flipped sure doesn't help perception either. I am glad that folks like CJ, Suitcase, and the individual that I know were given an R allocation.
12-28-2016, 10:59 PM
#98
Race Director
Looking at it purely from Porsche's perspective, it seems that that despite lack of foresight of some aforementioned potentially negative consequences of their VIP program, they still came out ahead as a brand.
Their cars are now considered more "exclusive" which generates guaranteed sales when they introduce a new model (i.e. The R). They have identified a pool of ready and willing repeat customers who have experienced the $ advantage of being VIP's, and they created a whole list of potentially upset but still ready and willing customers who want to be considered future VIP's and will jump through almost any hoop to gain the status. Yes, a few disparaging angry words on forums were spent, but Porsche as an OEM has guaranteed future sales, and as a brand has elevated its status. I don't think they regret the USA VIP experiment one bit, and they are using it as a prototype for future similar and expanded programs. I wouldn't be surprised if they create a tiered VIP program much like airline loyalty programs.. pay to play or get out the way.. there is always someone ready to take your place.
Luckily for us working stiffs, this means more VIP buddies who can occasionally throw us an allocation bone when their garage is too full, or the offering isn't VIP enough for their taste.
Porsche's move was genius, your appreciation of it just depends on how much expendable P-dollars you have.
Their cars are now considered more "exclusive" which generates guaranteed sales when they introduce a new model (i.e. The R). They have identified a pool of ready and willing repeat customers who have experienced the $ advantage of being VIP's, and they created a whole list of potentially upset but still ready and willing customers who want to be considered future VIP's and will jump through almost any hoop to gain the status. Yes, a few disparaging angry words on forums were spent, but Porsche as an OEM has guaranteed future sales, and as a brand has elevated its status. I don't think they regret the USA VIP experiment one bit, and they are using it as a prototype for future similar and expanded programs. I wouldn't be surprised if they create a tiered VIP program much like airline loyalty programs.. pay to play or get out the way.. there is always someone ready to take your place.
Luckily for us working stiffs, this means more VIP buddies who can occasionally throw us an allocation bone when their garage is too full, or the offering isn't VIP enough for their taste.
Porsche's move was genius, your appreciation of it just depends on how much expendable P-dollars you have.
12-29-2016, 12:05 AM
#99
More ...and yes I repeating myself but....
Sorry for repeating myself but I love it that we are all authentic car people here or we wouldn't take it so seriously. That's a good thing. Porsche has always had good customers that become preferred customers....just as in any other business. In the case of the R I believe PAG under estimated the demand for a MT NA GT car. Remember... until the R "Ring" times counted. OK. Things change.
And PCNA? Maybe in hind sight they would rethink some of this. Pissing off good customers is never good business. But I don't believe they ever thought four years ago when they invented the 918 VIP program that they'd be putting people in the car business at MSRP +. Remember they couldn't sell the 918s and RS's weren't flying out the door.
The good news for us enthusiasts is that Porsche will build a car similar to the R that will certainly be more available. Other than the Mustang I'm not sure where to find another MT NA car. Yes, I'd be whining if I didn't one. But on the other hand I'd really love a '74 3.0 RS. I don't have one. And good ones are very expensive and hard to come by. I've missed countless opportunities for one over the years. So consider this post my official whining about it.
Fortunately there are other Porsches' out there that are really fun. These days my daily driver is a '14 MT C4 that I purchased used. I push non-downshift rev match sport button, disengage the traction control and drive it like a rental car with full insurance. I'll probably go to jail in that car, not the R. And I keep voicing my love for the Boxster Spyder. And what about a 964 RS, or what about my favorite car for most of my life..... the 964 Speedster? I've seen a few of these come on the market recently at reasonable prices. PM me if you find one. I'm happy to talk it over with you. There is no reason for us like minded enthusiasts to get upset..especially with each other. If there is one thing I've learned after years of Porsches, Ferraris' and racing ......there's always another car.
And PCNA? Maybe in hind sight they would rethink some of this. Pissing off good customers is never good business. But I don't believe they ever thought four years ago when they invented the 918 VIP program that they'd be putting people in the car business at MSRP +. Remember they couldn't sell the 918s and RS's weren't flying out the door.
The good news for us enthusiasts is that Porsche will build a car similar to the R that will certainly be more available. Other than the Mustang I'm not sure where to find another MT NA car. Yes, I'd be whining if I didn't one. But on the other hand I'd really love a '74 3.0 RS. I don't have one. And good ones are very expensive and hard to come by. I've missed countless opportunities for one over the years. So consider this post my official whining about it.
Fortunately there are other Porsches' out there that are really fun. These days my daily driver is a '14 MT C4 that I purchased used. I push non-downshift rev match sport button, disengage the traction control and drive it like a rental car with full insurance. I'll probably go to jail in that car, not the R. And I keep voicing my love for the Boxster Spyder. And what about a 964 RS, or what about my favorite car for most of my life..... the 964 Speedster? I've seen a few of these come on the market recently at reasonable prices. PM me if you find one. I'm happy to talk it over with you. There is no reason for us like minded enthusiasts to get upset..especially with each other. If there is one thing I've learned after years of Porsches, Ferraris' and racing ......there's always another car.
12-29-2016, 12:26 AM
#100
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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12-29-2016, 01:19 AM
#101
Drifting
And I keep voicing my love for the Boxster Spyder. And what about a 964 RS, or what about my favorite car for most of my life..... the 964 Speedster? I've seen a few of these come on the market recently at reasonable prices. PM me if you find one. I'm happy to talk it over with you. There is no reason for us like minded enthusiasts to get upset..especially with each other. If there is one thing I've learned after years of Porsches, Ferraris' and racing ......there's always another car.
Everyone raves about the GT4, but when it was time for me to decide between selling the GT4 or my Boxster Spyder, the GT4 went out the door without a hesitation.
12-29-2016, 11:02 AM
#102
Nordschleife Master
Difference is long-term GT customers that wanted RS 4.0 generally were able to get one - myself, Trakcar, Mooty, all were able to secure allocations. This time around nada and it was because of VIP.
I have no problem with the VIP program itself but if you want to do something like that it's probably a good idea to produce enough cars that you don't screw your long-term GT customers in the process.
I have no problem with the VIP program itself but if you want to do something like that it's probably a good idea to produce enough cars that you don't screw your long-term GT customers in the process.
12-29-2016, 11:16 AM
#103
Rennlist Member
How would you compare the Boxster S with the Spyder and the Spyder to the 911R?
12-29-2016, 11:29 AM
#104
Rennlist Member
Ive only bought 3 new Porsches (2010RS 2016RS and a 2016 Macan to say thanks to the dealer) all at MSRP, all spec-ed by me.
All the others Porsches, including the 4.0 I bought used.
The 4.0 was at MSRP as that was the going price back then for low mileage cars, a few even sold used under MSRP.
I almost bought an all black 10K mile GT2RS for $188K but went with the 4.0 instead.
I probably could have gotten a new 4.0 if I had tried harder, back in 2011 plenty declared me nuts to pay $50K on top of the $137K for an 3.8RS for just 200CC and carbon fenders and hood....
12-29-2016, 11:36 AM
#105
Race Director
I cant believe the 4.0 went for msrp or below.. all I remember reading at the time was that it had been presold to long time Porsche customers before even being publicly introduced, none for sale left etc etc