991 GT3...Is PORSCHE becoming Ferrari???
10-11-2015, 08:35 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here.
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
10-11-2015, 08:48 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
somehow its annoying to not be able to purchase an item that has supply artificially decreased, I never heard of anyone having trouble buying a Trans Am back when they sold regular Firebirds
10-11-2015, 10:22 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Obviously the 918vip program has created a bit of a problem when it comes to their benefits.
This program has had the most impact on the availability of the 991RS.
Add to that that the 991RS is very street friendly and Automatic.
Low interest rate and cheap money. It would be interesting to see what would have happened without the 918vip program?
To summarize, I strongly believe that those 300 US 991RS VIP cars is the biggest reason to create the situation with $50-100k markups.
The cayman gt4 on the other hand is a completely different story. A track ready sub $100k GT Porsche is the new 997gt3! Please make more.
Porsche made the perfect amount of 991gt3 to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the same goes for the 991RS.
This program has had the most impact on the availability of the 991RS.
Add to that that the 991RS is very street friendly and Automatic.
Low interest rate and cheap money. It would be interesting to see what would have happened without the 918vip program?
To summarize, I strongly believe that those 300 US 991RS VIP cars is the biggest reason to create the situation with $50-100k markups.
The cayman gt4 on the other hand is a completely different story. A track ready sub $100k GT Porsche is the new 997gt3! Please make more.
Porsche made the perfect amount of 991gt3 to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the same goes for the 991RS.
This
10-11-2015, 10:29 PM
#19
With all due respect... Do you REALLY believe the PDK is responsible for all that much more demand??????
I can't imagine that it really contributes all that much. Maybe some small percentage, but nothing really substantial.
Just my opinion here.
I can't imagine that it really contributes all that much. Maybe some small percentage, but nothing really substantial.
Just my opinion here.
10-11-2015, 11:46 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
I think PDK has opened up the possibilities for so many of those out there who cannot drive stick, there are alot of them. I think demand is there and that with the VIP program it knocked out most of the car available so the non VIPs had to wait and this created demand with inadequate supply and now we wait
10-11-2015, 11:47 PM
#21
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I want to daily drive my GT3, so yes, it was a factor. Everyone with an older model GT3 I spoke with complained about the effort of the clutch, I was much happier Porsche focused their effort on making the PDK 'enthusiast acceptable'...
Sure on many occasions a manual is better, but in normal commuting traffic, it's not that much fun. If the rumors of the 991 R are true, we might see a GT3 with a manual, it will be interesting to see how the sales do...
Sure on many occasions a manual is better, but in normal commuting traffic, it's not that much fun. If the rumors of the 991 R are true, we might see a GT3 with a manual, it will be interesting to see how the sales do...
10-12-2015, 12:28 AM
#22
Three Wheelin'
10-12-2015, 12:58 AM
#23
10-12-2015, 01:10 AM
#24
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here.
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
I think there is a clear difference in thinking between "average" Porsche and Ferrari owners, and I think it's understandable and driven by appreciation. I do think Porsche, probably unintentionally, is in danger of "crossing over" a line that's invisible, but one that does have far reaching consequences for owners and users.
For a long time there was no reasonable expectation that most GT3s would be worth more money one day. They were depreciating assets, the question being how much money you'd lose. This forces owners to do one of two things:
A) Get their money's worth.
B) Get out.
Today the math has changed: maybe you can own and not lose money... if you don't use the car.
It's the flip of economic inflation: Deflation is bad because it encourages inaction and hoarding. A little inflation is good and healthy. A lot of inflation is bad.
Now replace "deflation" with "appreciation" and "inflation" with "depreciation" in the above. It's a line Porsche recently crossed, and with it very different market forces and mentality comes into play. Not just with GT cars but also the vintage cars. Suddenly you get speculators and hoarders. The RS (and GT3) starts to go the way of Ferrari: lots of cars driven minimally, slowly and kept in the garage... Not a healthy thing IMHO, not healthy forces. If I was Porsche I'd try to do something about it, probably bump production, to "manage the economy"...
Personally, while I believe any car should be bought to be driven, I do not begrudge anyone for doing whatever pleases them when they buy a car, be it a Porsche, Ferrari, or a Kia.
10-12-2015, 01:34 AM
#25
Agree too. When I sold my old BMW 750iL (owned alongside the Turbo) I swore never to buy another car without a proper (lever operated) handbrake/e-brake. Would never have thought Porsche was about to rip it out of the 911 and still call it a sports car.
We only had 6 driving controls as it was (steering wheel, gas, brake, clutch, gear lever and handbrake), and 5 in the case of an auto. Stop taking them away please!!
We only had 6 driving controls as it was (steering wheel, gas, brake, clutch, gear lever and handbrake), and 5 in the case of an auto. Stop taking them away please!!
10-12-2015, 01:52 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
For me owning a 996 GT3 was like being a member of a selective club. One that required sacrifices and special efforts to join. One that we could tell the motorsports department had helped create and was given more leeway in engineering than for decades in the USA. Yes, the clutch pedal was firm as was the suspension. Learning to drive it well on the track made me appreciate its talents and forced me to improve mine. It was closer to the cup race car than we had hoped it would be and never would be again. Talking to other 996 GT3 owners just confirmed it. The main topic was mods for enhanced track performance. If they were cup parts so much the better. I knew few people that didn't track their GT3 but they were the oddity.
The 997.1 GT3, with its sunroof, nicer interior and easier to live with suspension widened the membership but you still had to earn your spot in the (mostly) brotherhood. The 997.1 RS seemed to be built more for posers and collectors as it really didn't offer any more performance just wider hips and louder graphics. We welcomed them but most dropped out fearing damage to their precious toys. Those cars started the trend of low mileage being selling points rather than mods. They seemed more like special editions calculated by marketing and targeted to enhance the brand. A smaller percentage drove their cars on the track. Many used them as daily drivers, at least when weather allowed.
The 997.2, RS and 4.0 seemed to move the GT3 back to its roots as a barely housebroken race car. Although the higher priced RS and 4.0 was not often seen on track. More members, but a smaller percentage on track.
The 991 with its automatic transmission seemed to be an effort to split the difference even though for once the heart, the powerplant, was not really cup car related. An approachable GT3 for the masses, or at least the masses with the money to buy one. No sacrifice needed, stick it in auto to go for dinner or groceries. Only a few are used on track now beyond the green run groups. I hear complaints about the tire wear and fear of damaging their ceramic brakes. And resale...
So, the brotherhood has been diluted so that PCNA can move more product. I thought that was what the Cayenne was for. The marketing planners are in control and have broken down the psychological patterns of their GT target market so well. But they missed one thing, the club is now one I don't recognize. Conversations are more about future appreciation rather than apexes and tire pressures. Maybe the GT4 and clubsport will help start a new club. Hopefully they will build enough so that people will forget about treating them as virgins and drive the hell out of them. I can hope.
The 997.1 GT3, with its sunroof, nicer interior and easier to live with suspension widened the membership but you still had to earn your spot in the (mostly) brotherhood. The 997.1 RS seemed to be built more for posers and collectors as it really didn't offer any more performance just wider hips and louder graphics. We welcomed them but most dropped out fearing damage to their precious toys. Those cars started the trend of low mileage being selling points rather than mods. They seemed more like special editions calculated by marketing and targeted to enhance the brand. A smaller percentage drove their cars on the track. Many used them as daily drivers, at least when weather allowed.
The 997.2, RS and 4.0 seemed to move the GT3 back to its roots as a barely housebroken race car. Although the higher priced RS and 4.0 was not often seen on track. More members, but a smaller percentage on track.
The 991 with its automatic transmission seemed to be an effort to split the difference even though for once the heart, the powerplant, was not really cup car related. An approachable GT3 for the masses, or at least the masses with the money to buy one. No sacrifice needed, stick it in auto to go for dinner or groceries. Only a few are used on track now beyond the green run groups. I hear complaints about the tire wear and fear of damaging their ceramic brakes. And resale...
So, the brotherhood has been diluted so that PCNA can move more product. I thought that was what the Cayenne was for. The marketing planners are in control and have broken down the psychological patterns of their GT target market so well. But they missed one thing, the club is now one I don't recognize. Conversations are more about future appreciation rather than apexes and tire pressures. Maybe the GT4 and clubsport will help start a new club. Hopefully they will build enough so that people will forget about treating them as virgins and drive the hell out of them. I can hope.
10-12-2015, 02:12 AM
#27
This presumes, and perhaps assumes, that a buyer of a Porsche GT car is supposed to drive it.
Personally, while I believe any car should be bought to be driven, I do not begrudge anyone for doing whatever pleases them when they buy a car, be it a Porsche, Ferrari, or a Kia.
Personally, while I believe any car should be bought to be driven, I do not begrudge anyone for doing whatever pleases them when they buy a car, be it a Porsche, Ferrari, or a Kia.
Let's say a great condition 991 GT3 will be worth 400k in 5 years (much like an RS 4.0). Most owners, armed with this knowledge, will put their cars on the shelf, perhaps getting something else to drive. Even many owners that want to drive...
Cars are used less and cover fewer miles. Suddenly this community turns into a bunch of stamp collectors. Threads mainly cover what wax to use, how to store cars properly. Many go off to other forums about cars they can actually use.
Owning things does not bring happiness. Experiencing things does. I don't have a problem with owners doing whatever they want with their cars. I do however think forces that dissuade them from using their cars are unhealthy, particularly in the long run. The GT3 and Porche itself is known as a driver's car, not a poser's car, and lots of "regular" Porsches get sold on the back of a relatively small number of GT cars that have historically cemented that image. So while I understand and don't begrudge anyone using their cars as they please, I still see a shift from "driver's cars" to "collector's cars" as a bad thing. And that shift starts with appreciation.
Luckily for the newer cars it's a trend Porsche can easily correct, like the fed. By simply printing more cars...
10-12-2015, 02:22 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Tedster you are so right, so many more joined the club and this messed up past supply/demand ratios, some of the new club members were cool and some are dildoes
10-12-2015, 02:26 AM
#29
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exactly.
a lot of people have too many things and too little time to experience them.
then keep adding more and more things until they don't know what they have.
like mr wilde said, "they know the price of everything and the value of nothing"
a lot of people have too many things and too little time to experience them.
then keep adding more and more things until they don't know what they have.
like mr wilde said, "they know the price of everything and the value of nothing"
10-12-2015, 02:42 AM
#30
Obviously the 918vip program has created a bit of a problem when it comes to their benefits.
This program has had the most impact on the availability of the 991RS.
Add to that that the 991RS is very street friendly and Automatic.
Low interest rate and cheap money. It would be interesting to see what would have happened without the 918vip program?
To summarize, I strongly believe that those 300 US 991RS VIP cars is the biggest reason to create the situation with $50-100k markups.
The cayman gt4 on the other hand is a completely different story. A track ready sub $100k GT Porsche is the new 997gt3! Please make more.
Porsche made the perfect amount of 991gt3 to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the same goes for the 991RS.
This program has had the most impact on the availability of the 991RS.
Add to that that the 991RS is very street friendly and Automatic.
Low interest rate and cheap money. It would be interesting to see what would have happened without the 918vip program?
To summarize, I strongly believe that those 300 US 991RS VIP cars is the biggest reason to create the situation with $50-100k markups.
The cayman gt4 on the other hand is a completely different story. A track ready sub $100k GT Porsche is the new 997gt3! Please make more.
Porsche made the perfect amount of 991gt3 to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the same goes for the 991RS.