Electric GT3?
09-27-2015 | 11:22 PM
#16
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,317
Likes: 12,253
The 991 GT3 was a big step forward from the 997 GT3 in terms of technology, and elicited much skepticism at first, but it seems that the vast majority of drivers have come to view the gains as far outweighing the losses. PDK, PTV, RWS, etc. ... when well-integrated, this stuff works both in terms of performance and driver enjoyment.
Well, with a mix of doubt and hope, I test drove a Tesla P90D today and was floored. The acceleration is total muscle, and very linear because there's no shifting of gears. Despite a weight approaching 5,000 lbs, the handling was surprisingly good, in large part due to the low center of gravity. I drove the car pretty hard on some very demanding roads, then I drove my C63 on the same roads, and I felt that the Tesla was superior. The braking and brake feel were also excellent. Did I miss the combustion engine sound? Not really. The Tesla showed me that a car's kinesthetics are what I most enjoy a driver, and you don't need a loud engine for that. My summary review to the Tesla rep: "Holy ****".
So as far as the future of the GT3, the Tesla opened my mind, and I'm eager to see what technological advancements Porsche comes up with. It may sound like sacrilege, but I can see myself tracking an electric GT3 one day - and enjoying it!
Well, with a mix of doubt and hope, I test drove a Tesla P90D today and was floored. The acceleration is total muscle, and very linear because there's no shifting of gears. Despite a weight approaching 5,000 lbs, the handling was surprisingly good, in large part due to the low center of gravity. I drove the car pretty hard on some very demanding roads, then I drove my C63 on the same roads, and I felt that the Tesla was superior. The braking and brake feel were also excellent. Did I miss the combustion engine sound? Not really. The Tesla showed me that a car's kinesthetics are what I most enjoy a driver, and you don't need a loud engine for that. My summary review to the Tesla rep: "Holy ****".
So as far as the future of the GT3, the Tesla opened my mind, and I'm eager to see what technological advancements Porsche comes up with. It may sound like sacrilege, but I can see myself tracking an electric GT3 one day - and enjoying it!
I think the issue with an electric motor, or even a KERS application, is learning how to respond to instant torque, which makes driving a NA car feel like it has infinite lag.
All of this makes me optimistic if (or when) the GT4 goes hybrid.
09-27-2015 | 11:29 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,622
Likes: 14
From: Austin, Texas
09-28-2015 | 12:26 AM
#18
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,800
Likes: 200
From: FL
09-28-2015 | 12:43 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,168
Likes: 437
Test drove the P90D earlier this year. At the time I thought the brakes were a bit odd and would take some getting used too. Since Tesla is always pushing updates to the car, they could have changed the tuning for the brakes. The power is surreal and without drama, really video game like.
09-28-2015 | 12:47 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 16,860
Likes: 4,151
And how many laps can these electric track cars do? Didn't the Tesla run out of juice after a half dozen laps or something? Unless the battery can handle 500 miles on a charge and re-charge in hours, I'm not a buyer.
09-28-2015 | 01:36 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,728
Likes: 708
I was just down at Rennsport admiring a 917/30. 1500 hp, the most powerful sports racing car ever made... 1973.
It's not about how fast you go. In many ways it hasn't been for four decades. Instead it's about how you go fast. The noise, the drama, the effort on display as cars thundered down the straights.
It will be some time before electric is "better" from most points of view for race cars IMHO... Faster sure, but that's the easy part.
09-28-2015 | 02:17 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,243
Likes: 1,352
From: Rocky Mountains
when i had my c63 amg Black Series, i once did a little stoplight fun with a friend with a tesla s. It was very fast from a stop. especially since the Black Series couldn't really hook up from a stop. the tesla s was as fast or faster than the Black Series. On the highway different story. I got a chance to drive it also. Eyeball popping acceleration from stop. On the highway felt very anemic in comparison
I have heard that Tesla is much less powerful/less quick when accelerating 50-75 mph compared to 0-50, but I haven't tested this personally.
Hopefully someone else can chime it. I believe this trait also applies to the P85D and P90 cars.
If so this would definitely affect drivability as 50-75 acceleration is important for overtaking quickly on highway.
BTW- regarding the track. Motortrend tested high level Model S and it overheated after half a lap. Tesla will not be the first electric car you can track.
However, the Porsche Mission E Type, may be such a car.
09-28-2015 | 02:21 AM
#23
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,317
Likes: 12,253
I have heard that Tesla is much less powerful/less quick when accelerating 50-75 mph compared to 0-50, but I haven't tested this personally.
Hopefully someone else can chime it. I believe this trait also applies to the P85D and P90 cars.
If so this would definitely affect drivability as 50-75 acceleration is important for overtaking quickly on highway.
BTW- regarding the track. Motortrend tested high level Model S and it overheated after half a lap. Tesla will not be the first electric car you can track.
However, the Porsche Mission E Type, may be such a car.
Hopefully someone else can chime it. I believe this trait also applies to the P85D and P90 cars.
If so this would definitely affect drivability as 50-75 acceleration is important for overtaking quickly on highway.
BTW- regarding the track. Motortrend tested high level Model S and it overheated after half a lap. Tesla will not be the first electric car you can track.
However, the Porsche Mission E Type, may be such a car.
09-28-2015 | 08:45 AM
#24
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Better how? Faster?
I was just down at Rennsport admiring a 917/30. 1500 hp, the most powerful sports racing car ever made... 1973.
It's not about how fast you go. In many ways it hasn't been for four decades. Instead it's about how you go fast. The noise, the drama, the effort on display as cars thundered down the straights.
It will be some time before electric is "better" from most points of view for race cars IMHO... Faster sure, but that's the easy part.
I was just down at Rennsport admiring a 917/30. 1500 hp, the most powerful sports racing car ever made... 1973.
It's not about how fast you go. In many ways it hasn't been for four decades. Instead it's about how you go fast. The noise, the drama, the effort on display as cars thundered down the straights.
It will be some time before electric is "better" from most points of view for race cars IMHO... Faster sure, but that's the easy part.
I totally forgot about the Mission E (http://newsroom.porsche.com/en/produ...car-11391.html).
In these discussions, I do think we need to make a sharp distinction between road and track use, since they're so different. I thoroughly enjoy the GT3 on track, and the speed is part of it - fast is fun - and I certainly feel that I'm the one driving the car, rather than a bunch of aids helping me a lot. On the road, where speeds are constrained and pavement quality is more variable, there are plenty of cars I enjoy more than the GT3. To me, the overlap between these uses is pretty small, and I'm doubtful that any car can be made optimally fun for both uses. Part of the appeal of the Tesla seems to be the contradiction of the car being big, airy, and quiet, yet also fast, good handling, and good braking. I don't know whether this appeal would last in the long-term, but for road-only use I think the prospects are good, given that the car solidly surpassed my beloved C63 in a back to back comparison.
Last edited by Manifold; 09-28-2015 at 09:40 AM.
09-28-2015 | 01:45 PM
#25
Pro
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 575
Likes: 2
From: Tuolumne County
I agree that it would be entertaining to drive, however in my area and way of driving the time to reload is too much of a factor. I am also hesitant to put money into a company that could go upside down if the funding ever gets cut, as of now they are still losing money; even with subsidies. Stocks show doubling the production doubles the losses in the last few years.
I do think that hybrids may now be workable yet tech has a long way to go before electric vs fuel sourced cars are decided.
More nuclear electricity would be a better sign for me to jump in also.
I do think that hybrids may now be workable yet tech has a long way to go before electric vs fuel sourced cars are decided.
More nuclear electricity would be a better sign for me to jump in also.
09-28-2015 | 01:58 PM
#26
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,083
Likes: 244
From: North Bay Area, CA
09-28-2015 | 02:07 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
I dug into this a little further, and it appears to come down to combining the torque curve of an electric motor (max torque for several thousand rpm, then a roughly linear decline in torque) with a single gear. Tesla has apparently optimized it for typical US road use, providing a lot of torque up to highway speeds (hence the ludicrous 0-60 times), then a gradual drop thereafter. By comparison, an ICE will usually achieve peak torque around mid to high rpm, and works with multiple gears, so it's a different behavior overall. I have no idea how much the torque curve of an electric motor can be shaped through design, but it seems that Tesla found the drawbacks (weight, losses, complexity, cost, etc.) of adding even one extra gear to be not worth it. IMO, Tesla made the right call. 0-60 is meaningful on US roads, 60-120 matters more on the track, so maybe that's where at least two gears would make sense.
09-28-2015 | 06:21 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,427
Likes: 85
From: CA
Please, no electric/hybrid/diesel GT3 for me. Keep it loud, NA gas, period. If you want electric/hybrid/diesel, get a Mission E / Cayenne hybrid, diesel / 918. Going electric / hybrid would totally mess up the GT3's legacy and future in my opinion. Seriously, who buys a GT3 for fuel economy and silence?
Dan (wags his finger
)
Dan (wags his finger
)
09-28-2015 | 06:32 PM
#30
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,422
Likes: 4,606
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Please, no electric/hybrid/diesel GT3 for me. Keep it loud, NA gas, period. If you want electric/hybrid/diesel, get a Mission E / Cayenne hybrid, diesel / 918. Going electric / hybrid would totally mess up the GT3's legacy and future in my opinion. Seriously, who buys a GT3 for fuel economy and silence?
Dan (wags his finger)
Dan (wags his finger
)Things change, sometimes gradually, sometimes in leaps, and I no longer rule out the possibility of there one day being an electric GT3 which is enjoyable to drive. Would be a very different car from the 991 GT3, but perhaps something we'd still be willing to call a 'GT3'. I guess time will tell, and maybe the Mission E will be a way to test the waters.