** The "market adjustment" issue **
10-15-2015, 10:40 PM
#151
Trojan ...
This may be heresy, but the RS may be a mixed blessing. I had no great qualms tracking the GT3 and testing its limits at DE events at Watkins Glen and NJMP. Now with the market mark-up being $100,000 or so ON TOP of a $200,000 car, how many of us are willing to test the RS's limits on local tracks and risk losing this mark-up at potential resale. Many of us at some point will move on from our most recent acquisition, i.e. the RS. Observations have been made on RL that RS's used be seen much more at track events previously ... now not so.
If I hit the guard rail at The Glen, my pricey track insurance will fix the car ... but I think the mark-up $$ will be largely gone at resale ...
Except great enthusiasts, like TRAKCAR, who push their RS's to the limit (whom I applaud) I, for one, may not in the end feel up to pushing my RS as I felt I could the base GT3.
I may park/sell the RS and reacquire the base GT3 (OR GT4) ....
This may be heresy, but the RS may be a mixed blessing. I had no great qualms tracking the GT3 and testing its limits at DE events at Watkins Glen and NJMP. Now with the market mark-up being $100,000 or so ON TOP of a $200,000 car, how many of us are willing to test the RS's limits on local tracks and risk losing this mark-up at potential resale. Many of us at some point will move on from our most recent acquisition, i.e. the RS. Observations have been made on RL that RS's used be seen much more at track events previously ... now not so.
If I hit the guard rail at The Glen, my pricey track insurance will fix the car ... but I think the mark-up $$ will be largely gone at resale ...
Except great enthusiasts, like TRAKCAR, who push their RS's to the limit (whom I applaud) I, for one, may not in the end feel up to pushing my RS as I felt I could the base GT3.
I may park/sell the RS and reacquire the base GT3 (OR GT4) ....
10-16-2015, 02:25 AM
#152
Trojan ...
This may be heresy, but the RS may be a mixed blessing. I had no great qualms tracking the GT3 and testing its limits at DE events at Watkins Glen and NJMP. Now with the market mark-up being $100,000 or so ON TOP of a $200,000 car, how many of us are willing to test the RS's limits on local tracks and risk losing this mark-up at potential resale. Many of us at some point will move on from our most recent acquisition, i.e. the RS. Observations have been made on RL that RS's used be seen much more at track events previously ... now not so.
If I hit the guard rail at The Glen, my pricey track insurance will fix the car ... but I think the mark-up $$ will be largely gone at resale ...
Except great enthusiasts, like TRAKCAR, who push their RS's to the limit (whom I applaud) I, for one, may not in the end feel up to pushing my RS as I felt I could the base GT3.
I may park/sell the RS and reacquire the base GT3 (OR GT4) ....
This may be heresy, but the RS may be a mixed blessing. I had no great qualms tracking the GT3 and testing its limits at DE events at Watkins Glen and NJMP. Now with the market mark-up being $100,000 or so ON TOP of a $200,000 car, how many of us are willing to test the RS's limits on local tracks and risk losing this mark-up at potential resale. Many of us at some point will move on from our most recent acquisition, i.e. the RS. Observations have been made on RL that RS's used be seen much more at track events previously ... now not so.
If I hit the guard rail at The Glen, my pricey track insurance will fix the car ... but I think the mark-up $$ will be largely gone at resale ...
Except great enthusiasts, like TRAKCAR, who push their RS's to the limit (whom I applaud) I, for one, may not in the end feel up to pushing my RS as I felt I could the base GT3.
I may park/sell the RS and reacquire the base GT3 (OR GT4) ....
Besides, you should move out to the West Coast where most of our tracks don't have walls.
10-16-2015, 02:30 AM
#153
It's like chasing a girl who won't give you the time of day, she may be hot but you gotta know when it's time to move on because there are other fish in the sea. Again, I was a porsche dealer newb who didn't act fast enough so I didn't expect allocations to drop into my lap for an RS and GT4 (hence why I paid a small premium for my GT4). Lesson learned and have taken the recommended steps to secure the upcoming .2 GT cars. Let's see if effort pays off...I'm hopefully it will. 
10-16-2015, 10:33 AM
#154
Trojan ... This may be heresy, but the RS may be a mixed blessing. I had no great qualms tracking the GT3 and testing its limits at DE events at Watkins Glen and NJMP. Now with the market mark-up being $100,000 or so ON TOP of a $200,000 car, how many of us are willing to test the RS's limits on local tracks and risk losing this mark-up at potential resale. Many of us at some point will move on from our most recent acquisition, i.e. the RS. Observations have been made on RL that RS's used be seen much more at track events previously ... now not so. If I hit the guard rail at The Glen, my pricey track insurance will fix the car ... but I think the mark-up $$ will be largely gone at resale ... Except great enthusiasts, like TRAKCAR, who push their RS's to the limit (whom I applaud) I, for one, may not in the end feel up to pushing my RS as I felt I could the base GT3. I may park/sell the RS and reacquire the base GT3 (OR GT4) ....
I'm in the same boat as Trojan. Bought my 4.0 before this market went crazy. Doesn't get driven enough. If it would have been a depreciation asset like most other cars it would have been driven a lot more and tracked!
As nice as it is to own these amazing cars and see the values rise, my hobby is to drive.
So instead of spending $200k + $100k market adjustment on a new RS. A personal "singer" 964 with a 3.6l mezger and nice suspension and cool carbon interior. Should be doable for a lot less and be a lot of fun.
10-16-2015, 11:26 AM
#155
Rennlist Member
10-16-2015, 05:50 PM
#156
Totally agree!
I'm in the same boat as Trojan. Bought my 4.0 before this market went crazy. Doesn't get driven enough. If it would have been a depreciation asset like most other cars it would have been driven a lot more and tracked!
As nice as it is to own these amazing cars and see the values rise, my hobby is to drive.
So instead of spending $200k + $100k market adjustment on a new RS. A personal "singer" 964 with a 3.6l mezger and nice suspension and cool carbon interior. Should be doable for a lot less and be a lot of fun.
I'm in the same boat as Trojan. Bought my 4.0 before this market went crazy. Doesn't get driven enough. If it would have been a depreciation asset like most other cars it would have been driven a lot more and tracked!
As nice as it is to own these amazing cars and see the values rise, my hobby is to drive.
So instead of spending $200k + $100k market adjustment on a new RS. A personal "singer" 964 with a 3.6l mezger and nice suspension and cool carbon interior. Should be doable for a lot less and be a lot of fun.
10-17-2015, 01:50 AM
#157
Trojan & 997rs4.0,
Testing the limits of a "singer" 964 at Laguna Seca or Buttonwillow would be a great experience ... maybe will try to arrange hauling a track-worthy Porsche across the country to various tracks over the next several years. That's a dream worth pursuing ...
I thought the RS would be my next track-toy ... wasn't expecting the sudden $$ appreciation. I wouldn't be surprised if the GT2/GT2RS will pose same situation.
Testing the limits of a "singer" 964 at Laguna Seca or Buttonwillow would be a great experience ... maybe will try to arrange hauling a track-worthy Porsche across the country to various tracks over the next several years. That's a dream worth pursuing ...
I thought the RS would be my next track-toy ... wasn't expecting the sudden $$ appreciation. I wouldn't be surprised if the GT2/GT2RS will pose same situation.
10-17-2015, 03:07 AM
#158
Rennlist Member
Interesting discussion and thoughts on the marketing side of things.
I had great interest in the 991 GT3 (and the GT4) before I found out how allocations work and that the MSRP was quite simply not available without waiting in line for years. This was disappointing, but I guess that's the reality of the premium car business - at least for those that choose to be profitable business enterprises rather than boutique shops for enthusiasts.
Despite all the unique components with corresponding engineering and manufacturing requirements, each GT3 only brings in a touch more revenue than a loaded C2S. The financial metrics alone don't make a good case - this model doesn't appear to be built to help shareholders directly. But when Porsche builds them, enthusiasts, proud collectors, and most importantly, the whole world's journalists get to drive them and create headlines telling everyone how great they are. Every white collar worker can then be proud to own an authentic, serious sports car - even if that owner will only drive the car to work and to pick up the kids. As STG991 has said, it legitimizes the brand.
With these waiting lists and modest prices on GT3s, Porsche creates an environment where (only) the passionate among enthusiasts do eventually get the special cars after a long wait, and then we become salesmen and brand ambassadors for the cars by doing what we love - driving them hard and taking them to track days and so forth - and then telling our friends (peers) how great Porsches are. The system they have does seem to work very well from the business side - Porsche has great margins and seems to sell an experience and an image rather than just a product - similar to Harley Davidson's great success in the 1990s.
As to some of the questions raised, I'm left to speculate... perhaps the thinking is that if the production numbers and prices meet market demand, the collectors will disappear and take some part of the brand's prestige with them? Or perhaps there isn't any solid logic but the system is working so well nobody wants to do such a stress test and risk finding out they misjudged... a real world sensitivity analysis is quite risky when things are going so well.
I had great interest in the 991 GT3 (and the GT4) before I found out how allocations work and that the MSRP was quite simply not available without waiting in line for years. This was disappointing, but I guess that's the reality of the premium car business - at least for those that choose to be profitable business enterprises rather than boutique shops for enthusiasts.
Despite all the unique components with corresponding engineering and manufacturing requirements, each GT3 only brings in a touch more revenue than a loaded C2S. The financial metrics alone don't make a good case - this model doesn't appear to be built to help shareholders directly. But when Porsche builds them, enthusiasts, proud collectors, and most importantly, the whole world's journalists get to drive them and create headlines telling everyone how great they are. Every white collar worker can then be proud to own an authentic, serious sports car - even if that owner will only drive the car to work and to pick up the kids. As STG991 has said, it legitimizes the brand.
With these waiting lists and modest prices on GT3s, Porsche creates an environment where (only) the passionate among enthusiasts do eventually get the special cars after a long wait, and then we become salesmen and brand ambassadors for the cars by doing what we love - driving them hard and taking them to track days and so forth - and then telling our friends (peers) how great Porsches are. The system they have does seem to work very well from the business side - Porsche has great margins and seems to sell an experience and an image rather than just a product - similar to Harley Davidson's great success in the 1990s.
As to some of the questions raised, I'm left to speculate... perhaps the thinking is that if the production numbers and prices meet market demand, the collectors will disappear and take some part of the brand's prestige with them? Or perhaps there isn't any solid logic but the system is working so well nobody wants to do such a stress test and risk finding out they misjudged... a real world sensitivity analysis is quite risky when things are going so well.
10-18-2015, 03:02 AM
#159
I don't think that Porsche increasing production will make collectors go away, they'll still be looking for ultra low mile PTS and non-PTS cars for their collections. The more that I think about it, the more that I think the 918 VIP program in the US has created some of speculation that we are seeing. I'm sure the whole engine fire issue with the GT3s didn't help by limiting the .1RS production just to one year. The part that dealers are selling allocations to each other and not selling it to the folks that are on their wait lists is the most infuriating thing to me...just too many games being played right now to see how much blood dealers can extract out of desperate/highly motivated buyers.
10-19-2015, 03:00 PM
#162
Rennlist Member
there is no issue its all artificial, they can make more if they want to, its not like the car is lined with panda fur and powered by the tears of Ethiopian kids
10-19-2015, 05:55 PM
#163
10-19-2015, 06:54 PM
#164
Race Director
Thread Starter
The only thing that will put pressure on the 991.1 GT3 and GT3RS are the 991.2 versions. Until then, the pricing and market will stay strong for the .1's
10-19-2015, 06:55 PM
#165
Sorta like the 997 .1 and .2 RS's. Not. I don't really care, I ordered mine to drive.