New Manual Narrow Wingless 911 GT?
06-05-2015, 10:37 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
Peter if you enjoyed the Cayman S PDK on track you will surely be satisfied with your GT3RS!
IMO there is no way they could get a stripped out 991 GT3 under 1350kg without touching the body in white and making it very expensive. It already has alot of alloy for doors, hood, fenders, roof and plastic for rear lid etc.
Its a nice idea but not likely IMO. In terms of low cost weight saving modifications:
The narrow body vs C4 body on GT3 might save 35lb.
The carpet, aircon, PCM, RWS, battery, dash door cards and seats could be removed or parred back for a further 100lb.
Wheels & tires back to 5 lug and down to 19" could find 40lb.
Manual gearbox another 40lb but then add in some weight for traditional LSD
A lighter wiring loom perhaps 15-20lb.
If a "stock" GT3 on steel brakes and comfort seat is 1460kg then I guess the above would get you to around 1350kg (230lb savings) without massive re homolgation/TUV costs.
The only thing I would say is that without PSK-S, e diff, RWS and larger tire contract patch and some aero you would be probably looking at a car that even with the GT3s 475 bhp would unlikely be quicker around the track than a 997 GT3. Doesnt seem much point when you could go and buy a used 7.2 GT3 etc?
IMO there is no way they could get a stripped out 991 GT3 under 1350kg without touching the body in white and making it very expensive. It already has alot of alloy for doors, hood, fenders, roof and plastic for rear lid etc.
Its a nice idea but not likely IMO. In terms of low cost weight saving modifications:
The narrow body vs C4 body on GT3 might save 35lb.
The carpet, aircon, PCM, RWS, battery, dash door cards and seats could be removed or parred back for a further 100lb.
Wheels & tires back to 5 lug and down to 19" could find 40lb.
Manual gearbox another 40lb but then add in some weight for traditional LSD
A lighter wiring loom perhaps 15-20lb.
If a "stock" GT3 on steel brakes and comfort seat is 1460kg then I guess the above would get you to around 1350kg (230lb savings) without massive re homolgation/TUV costs.
The only thing I would say is that without PSK-S, e diff, RWS and larger tire contract patch and some aero you would be probably looking at a car that even with the GT3s 475 bhp would unlikely be quicker around the track than a 997 GT3. Doesnt seem much point when you could go and buy a used 7.2 GT3 etc?
06-06-2015, 08:06 AM
#63
Bardman. You really need to drive a G series, long hood 964/993. The GT4 is still quite numb compared to these cars. The have better brake pedal feel, firmer clutches with much more feel through their hydraulic steering racks and with no electronic aids everything you feel is through your bum and you really feel the chassis working. It helps they are 100-200kg lighter than the new GT cars and with some suspension and brake upgrades we have found a nicely set up 993 with a little weight reduction can be almost as quick around the track as a 996.1 GT3 if pedalled well. The great news (for some) is the are all appreciating in value too.
The GT4 is a more involving drive compared to many of the other offerings from Porsche, but when compared across the cars available to choose from new or used its still quite clinical I expect. A few years ago a UK friend chose between a new Gt3 RS and a 964RS (track work) with a 993 C4S as his weekend driver. At the time there two cars cost him 65,000 GBP together. Both were excellent low mile examples. That was 5 years ago and in Jan this year he sold the C4S for 65000 GBP alone enough to buy a brand new Gt4. The 964 RS is now insured for 188000 GBP! It doesn't see much track work these days so he is considering selling it...
Here's our girl when she was just used for Tarmac rally. For a few years she was my track car but after purchasing the GT3 have put her back to Tarmac Rally spec. 14+ years ownership.
The GT4 is a more involving drive compared to many of the other offerings from Porsche, but when compared across the cars available to choose from new or used its still quite clinical I expect. A few years ago a UK friend chose between a new Gt3 RS and a 964RS (track work) with a 993 C4S as his weekend driver. At the time there two cars cost him 65,000 GBP together. Both were excellent low mile examples. That was 5 years ago and in Jan this year he sold the C4S for 65000 GBP alone enough to buy a brand new Gt4. The 964 RS is now insured for 188000 GBP! It doesn't see much track work these days so he is considering selling it...
Here's our girl when she was just used for Tarmac rally. For a few years she was my track car but after purchasing the GT3 have put her back to Tarmac Rally spec. 14+ years ownership.
06-06-2015, 08:15 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
Yes you are right with new cars. Sorry I found myself rambling a bit there...
06-07-2015, 04:49 AM
#65
Race Car
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This might be the rumoured less-is-more "Cup edition." Let's have some fun guessing:
3.8L GT3 engine, 6MT, no wing, narrow body, no RWS, no rear seats, LWB (delayed production included), CF fenders, Mg roof (just to make it cost more), decal badge (just to make it weigh less), strap door pulls (in black, orange, or silver only), PCCB, polycarbonate rear window (ROW only, what were you thinking US customers), optional AC delete, optional radio delete, white plus a few other forgettable colours, no PTS, maybe PTS (we really NEED it!!!), ok now there's PTS but just for a few lucky winners (all the rest of you can drool).
Ok. Let's be real. We're gonna love it.
3.8L GT3 engine, 6MT, no wing, narrow body, no RWS, no rear seats, LWB (delayed production included), CF fenders, Mg roof (just to make it cost more), decal badge (just to make it weigh less), strap door pulls (in black, orange, or silver only), PCCB, polycarbonate rear window (ROW only, what were you thinking US customers), optional AC delete, optional radio delete, white plus a few other forgettable colours, no PTS, maybe PTS (we really NEED it!!!), ok now there's PTS but just for a few lucky winners (all the rest of you can drool).
Ok. Let's be real. We're gonna love it.
GT3 engineering is fantastic
why ruin that ?
dear PAG R&D Spend your money (we pay you a lot isn t it?)
and Simply at low cost put a 4.2 flat six 500nm 530hp max 8500rpm
a huge torque in low mid rpm range and Bingo a super rewarding involving perfect car!
Add optional to a manual (you need manual for pseudo nostalgics buyers) a 50kg/120lbs lighter PDK-S race gearbox in the perfect GT3 body with perfect 4.2l above and you made everyone happy
why should i buy a 991 2S with a Gt3 engine some decals and carbon and call it more involving retro GT??? I can always buy a 997 GT3 half the price and half the pain when beated by 991 GT3 owners in every condition either on Broad not just track
You can do much more than that
p.s. now i see why since a couple of weeks i keep receiving
stalkers requests to sell them my GT3
Last edited by fxz; 06-07-2015 at 05:37 AM.
06-07-2015, 12:32 PM
#66
From crazy to craziest
GT3 engineering is fantastic
why ruin that ?
dear PAG R&D Spend your money (we pay you a lot isn t it?)
and Simply at low cost put a 4.2 flat six 500nm 530hp max 8500rpm
a huge torque in low mid rpm range and Bingo a super rewarding involving perfect car!
Add optional to a manual (you need manual for pseudo nostalgics buyers) a 50kg/120lbs lighter PDK-S race gearbox in the perfect GT3 body with perfect 4.2l above and you made everyone happy
why should i buy a 991 2S with a Gt3 engine some decals and carbon and call it more involving retro GT??? I can always buy a 997 GT3 half the price and half the pain when beated by 991 GT3 owners in every condition either on Broad not just track
You can do much more than that
p.s. now i see why since a couple of weeks i keep receiving
stalkers requests to sell them my GT3
GT3 engineering is fantastic
why ruin that ?
dear PAG R&D Spend your money (we pay you a lot isn t it?)
and Simply at low cost put a 4.2 flat six 500nm 530hp max 8500rpm
a huge torque in low mid rpm range and Bingo a super rewarding involving perfect car!
Add optional to a manual (you need manual for pseudo nostalgics buyers) a 50kg/120lbs lighter PDK-S race gearbox in the perfect GT3 body with perfect 4.2l above and you made everyone happy
why should i buy a 991 2S with a Gt3 engine some decals and carbon and call it more involving retro GT??? I can always buy a 997 GT3 half the price and half the pain when beated by 991 GT3 owners in every condition either on Broad not just track
You can do much more than that
p.s. now i see why since a couple of weeks i keep receiving
stalkers requests to sell them my GT3
07-20-2015, 04:26 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
The odds of reverting to hydraulic steering at this point has to be zero. It would signify failure on Porsche's end and make a lot of 991/981 drivers angry. Though sometimes you just have to do the right thing. How much mpg does electric steering actually save?
07-20-2015, 07:57 PM
#68
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
If the hydraulic pump is driven by an electric motor like Porsche 919 and 991 factory race cars (and McLaren road cars), then the difference has to be very close to 0 mpg saved. Only difference is the alternator may have to have a slightly higher current rating to keep the battery fully charged (eps doesn't use any electricity when going straight while electro-hydraulic uses a small amount)
07-20-2015, 08:12 PM
#69
Race Director
In addition to the nominal savings in mpg there's also some weight reduction and simplification in manufacturing and maintenance which comes from eliminating the pump, hoses, and hydraulic fluid used with HPS. I'm not going to argue the relative merits of the two systems, just sayin'.....
07-20-2015, 08:36 PM
#70
I think I'd rather have a 964 RS or 993 RS - more money that's for sure , but trying for some kind of retro 991 doesn't seem like it will work . And please don't get me wrong - if they offered a manual in the new RS that is what I'd go for .
07-20-2015, 08:54 PM
#71
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Thread Starter
In addition to the nominal savings in mpg there's also some weight reduction and simplification in manufacturing and maintenance which comes from eliminating the pump, hoses, and hydraulic fluid used with HPS. I'm not going to argue the relative merits of the two systems, just sayin'.....
07-20-2015, 09:31 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
If you don't think that every second of everyday Porsche isn't trying to cut manufacturing costs to put more money to bottom line then they have done a great job putting you together
07-20-2015, 09:39 PM
#74
Addict
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Thread Starter
Those are wonderful cars, but Porsche wants a piece of that money. And they are able to offer some perks with a new car that you don't get with a classic (track warranty, Euro Delivery, modern performance, safety, comfort, etc.).
07-20-2015, 09:50 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
For decades Porsches were known the world over for having the best steering of any car on the planet. To lose that quality in order to save a few dollars is shameful.
At least the 991 GT3 has relatively decent steering. You'd never catch me driving a regular 991.
Last edited by Drifting; 07-20-2015 at 09:53 PM. Reason: .