New Manual Narrow Wingless 911 GT?
06-05-2015, 12:19 AM
#46
Three Wheelin'
No not close.....when I say stripped, I mean old school stripped. A true lightweight, not a marketing bs lightweight in today's terms. Absolutely no frills at all, the option list would only be a/c delete. No pcm, no leather options, no anything! This is a price point gap GT mission.
06-05-2015, 12:50 AM
#47
GT3 player par excellence
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Grant. Call me a skeptic but Frankel lost me when he miss reported (in a big way) twice late last year and early this year on the 991 GT3RS and the Hatz interview.
I put zero credence in this piece.
What has been indicated to me and what I have repeated here on RL a few times over the last 5 months is that I understand Porsche are considering having a manual option in the base GT3 and a PDK only on the RS (their track car star). These will be 991.2 Gen cars and I dont believe we will see anything of this ilk until 2017.
If you look at the facts logically Porsche do not need another GT sub variant. The GT3/GT4/RS cover all the bases and yet to not saturate demand. Introducing an additional model variant is expensive and achieves little if you work the said design parameters into the existing model hierarchy.
The manual transmission thing & "involvement" has got a bit carried away IMO. The new RS reviews alone show that you can have both. The GT3 was the ice breaker here and as such took the heat but just look at whats happening really. They are trading most markets used more $$$ than new, almost everyone who owns one including hard core MT guys have found it to be a very enjoyable machine and the car was the first non RS to win the converted EVO COTY as well as R&T COTY and World Sportscar of the Year Award.
Dont get me wrong I love my MT cars as much as the next guy but its got a little silly. The platforms are not getting smaller, nor remarkably lighter each generation so the reality is a MT GT3 "Should" address the naysayers concerns. The need to loose e-diff, RWS, PTV, dynamic engine mounts etc is all BS IMO. Those features appear transparent to me when driving the car as they should be - even the TC rarely raises its head and even then can be switched off.
Frankels reading the tea leaves wrong in my opinion. All we are seeing here is a rumour doing the rounds without substance. Some notable magazines afterall were still quoting the 991 GT3RS may be using a turbo engine right up till February! The car that is illuded to is most likely the next gen GT3 and yes I do believe they will offer it in MT for those that wish to circulate the track slower but with DIY H&T.
I put zero credence in this piece.
What has been indicated to me and what I have repeated here on RL a few times over the last 5 months is that I understand Porsche are considering having a manual option in the base GT3 and a PDK only on the RS (their track car star). These will be 991.2 Gen cars and I dont believe we will see anything of this ilk until 2017.
If you look at the facts logically Porsche do not need another GT sub variant. The GT3/GT4/RS cover all the bases and yet to not saturate demand. Introducing an additional model variant is expensive and achieves little if you work the said design parameters into the existing model hierarchy.
The manual transmission thing & "involvement" has got a bit carried away IMO. The new RS reviews alone show that you can have both. The GT3 was the ice breaker here and as such took the heat but just look at whats happening really. They are trading most markets used more $$$ than new, almost everyone who owns one including hard core MT guys have found it to be a very enjoyable machine and the car was the first non RS to win the converted EVO COTY as well as R&T COTY and World Sportscar of the Year Award.
Dont get me wrong I love my MT cars as much as the next guy but its got a little silly. The platforms are not getting smaller, nor remarkably lighter each generation so the reality is a MT GT3 "Should" address the naysayers concerns. The need to loose e-diff, RWS, PTV, dynamic engine mounts etc is all BS IMO. Those features appear transparent to me when driving the car as they should be - even the TC rarely raises its head and even then can be switched off.
Frankels reading the tea leaves wrong in my opinion. All we are seeing here is a rumour doing the rounds without substance. Some notable magazines afterall were still quoting the 991 GT3RS may be using a turbo engine right up till February! The car that is illuded to is most likely the next gen GT3 and yes I do believe they will offer it in MT for those that wish to circulate the track slower but with DIY H&T.
yes, porsche sometimes listen to the public.
but when a designer take too much outside opinion, his creation becomes design by group, losing focus. things that transcend time are usually designed by one mastermind. if you like it great, if you dont like it, there's always honda and ferrari. i think it may have been macca who said it. MT is great, but you can't just shove a MT to an engine that's not design for it. 9A! (unless changed from past) is really pdk. of course if they made a PACKAGE with right engine and the trans for it. then that's different story. a manufacturer needs to take a stance. porsche is lost. goto their site and bulid a 991. you will see there are 10? 15? or was it 20? variants.....
06-05-2015, 01:54 AM
#49
Just call it a 912.....
-Take 6" out of the wheelbase, no back seat needed
-narrow the narrow body by a couple inches.
-taller front fender and more upright headlight
-shave the overhangs
-no sunroof
-no wing
-spasm
-6 spd
-300hp turbo flat 4 from upcoming boxster
Only offer classic colors from IROC cars.......
-Take 6" out of the wheelbase, no back seat needed
-narrow the narrow body by a couple inches.
-taller front fender and more upright headlight
-shave the overhangs
-no sunroof
-no wing
-spasm
-6 spd
-300hp turbo flat 4 from upcoming boxster
Only offer classic colors from IROC cars.......
06-05-2015, 01:58 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
Mooty.
Porsche is lost?
I have to agree.
Its probably an identity crisis.
When you Mother is a Porsche and your Father is a VW it could get a bit like that I suspect. More so form here on in.
Its one thing to understand and distil the requirements of your clients in order to supply a world case product and retain an acceptable ROI for your shareholders - but its much easier to produce a mass market 4X4 people mover for the Tiger economies and developed world whilst paying lip service to what you "think" your core brand ambassadors are wanting whilst playing lip service by way of using back catalogue misty eyed nostalgia (aka 917, Martin stripes, Gulf livery - it extends now through out the Porsche Selection catalogue and onto the cars via vinyl pinstripes!).
"Rebels Race On". New font yellow on black background. Whats that all about? Im in the demographic, I have an order pending...but last time I looked I had pubic hair and Im not 17!
"Stabbing in the dark" is a phase that comes to mind with Porsches scatter gun product approach for the 911 & Cayman in the last generation or two. They need to make fewer cars and make them VERY good. Seminal even!
Lets take this latest bit "gossip". I love it - dont get me wrong. They are going to bring Ron Dennis on board to make a super lighte weight 1300kg 911 with a 9000 rpm 475bhp engine in manual with no aero (it cant be active aero or that would cost weight and it cant be passive aero or it aint gonna look much like a 911 any longer is it!).
Porsche dont need another GT car. They need THE GT car! It should have been lighter from the beginning (not sure how far you can get the 991 chassis using traditional stripping methods without going extic like uber expensive to repair 991 RS but should have thought 1350Kg was possible with steelies by biffing all the lounge furniture and comfy door cards).
Heck get rid of half the airbags. I only need 2. Anyone tracking an aircooled 911 will tell you you should be so lucky! RWS. Dont really need it? Big battery - not needed have $70 Ctek.CL - dont need it. 20" wheels. Dont need them.
This isnt a new model. This should just be "THE GT3". They never make enough of them anyway so why create a fourth sub group. Just make the car lighter, harder and more nimble/intimate and if you end up killing half the market you had for your 991 GT3 so what - you still have more demand than you intend to supply!
The only thing I think they should retrograde next generation is the electric steering. And give the punters a manual option (or manual only?). Put the engineering money into a decent clutch and box, perfect the brake bias and boost/,modulation and go back to Hydraulic steering.
There's no magic here. The press piece is like 100 that have gone before proclaiming a GT4 Boxster, a 991 Turbo GT2 and RS with a turbo. Theres no logic in the statement. PAG need a Ron Dennis designed GT3 next generation and make the RS the all singing all dancing rocket ship. Of course once you stick a manual in a GT3 and parr the price back because you are offering less "stuff" in it then you kill your Cayman GT4 a bit...but hey.
P.S. Just watched the F488 videos streaming in (Chris Harris) and early write ups from the magazines. Have to say I like Fezzas approach. They have created a turbo monster that so far seems to have the Journos buzzing and quite satisfied. Their cars aren't bristling with comfort features and no one says "I wish it was manual" or "its too fast for the road" or "it should have more feel". They arent following they are leading. They are clearly the piper and the children will follow. With Porsche their piper must think hes trying to herd cats as we are all over the place - or should I say what they want as a company is in 6 different directions at once!
Porsche is lost?
I have to agree.
Its probably an identity crisis.
When you Mother is a Porsche and your Father is a VW it could get a bit like that I suspect. More so form here on in.
Its one thing to understand and distil the requirements of your clients in order to supply a world case product and retain an acceptable ROI for your shareholders - but its much easier to produce a mass market 4X4 people mover for the Tiger economies and developed world whilst paying lip service to what you "think" your core brand ambassadors are wanting whilst playing lip service by way of using back catalogue misty eyed nostalgia (aka 917, Martin stripes, Gulf livery - it extends now through out the Porsche Selection catalogue and onto the cars via vinyl pinstripes!).
"Rebels Race On". New font yellow on black background. Whats that all about? Im in the demographic, I have an order pending...but last time I looked I had pubic hair and Im not 17!
"Stabbing in the dark" is a phase that comes to mind with Porsches scatter gun product approach for the 911 & Cayman in the last generation or two. They need to make fewer cars and make them VERY good. Seminal even!
Lets take this latest bit "gossip". I love it - dont get me wrong. They are going to bring Ron Dennis on board to make a super lighte weight 1300kg 911 with a 9000 rpm 475bhp engine in manual with no aero (it cant be active aero or that would cost weight and it cant be passive aero or it aint gonna look much like a 911 any longer is it!).
Porsche dont need another GT car. They need THE GT car! It should have been lighter from the beginning (not sure how far you can get the 991 chassis using traditional stripping methods without going extic like uber expensive to repair 991 RS but should have thought 1350Kg was possible with steelies by biffing all the lounge furniture and comfy door cards).
Heck get rid of half the airbags. I only need 2. Anyone tracking an aircooled 911 will tell you you should be so lucky! RWS. Dont really need it? Big battery - not needed have $70 Ctek.CL - dont need it. 20" wheels. Dont need them.
This isnt a new model. This should just be "THE GT3". They never make enough of them anyway so why create a fourth sub group. Just make the car lighter, harder and more nimble/intimate and if you end up killing half the market you had for your 991 GT3 so what - you still have more demand than you intend to supply!
The only thing I think they should retrograde next generation is the electric steering. And give the punters a manual option (or manual only?). Put the engineering money into a decent clutch and box, perfect the brake bias and boost/,modulation and go back to Hydraulic steering.
There's no magic here. The press piece is like 100 that have gone before proclaiming a GT4 Boxster, a 991 Turbo GT2 and RS with a turbo. Theres no logic in the statement. PAG need a Ron Dennis designed GT3 next generation and make the RS the all singing all dancing rocket ship. Of course once you stick a manual in a GT3 and parr the price back because you are offering less "stuff" in it then you kill your Cayman GT4 a bit...but hey.
P.S. Just watched the F488 videos streaming in (Chris Harris) and early write ups from the magazines. Have to say I like Fezzas approach. They have created a turbo monster that so far seems to have the Journos buzzing and quite satisfied. Their cars aren't bristling with comfort features and no one says "I wish it was manual" or "its too fast for the road" or "it should have more feel". They arent following they are leading. They are clearly the piper and the children will follow. With Porsche their piper must think hes trying to herd cats as we are all over the place - or should I say what they want as a company is in 6 different directions at once!
06-05-2015, 10:10 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Porsche is not quite as confused as BMW, but getting closer to it. They both have the "make money and to hell with the consequences mindset"
I just find it sad that Porsche can't seem to find the right mix.
They toned down the normal 981 and 991 a little too far in terms of "fun to drive factor". A bit sterile is a good way to describe them.
Then they come out with the 991 GT3, and could have easily thrown stick in it and made people happy but chose not to.
Now they are releasing lower than GT3 but better than GTS models that are fun to drive?
I love my 981cs, a GT4 would be great as a track car, but the street usefulness of the car is handicapped on cup tires, the wing is polarizing, black interior only, etc.
Seems like the GTS concept should be re imagined as pure and rough rather than creating another model in the lineup.
I just find it sad that Porsche can't seem to find the right mix.
They toned down the normal 981 and 991 a little too far in terms of "fun to drive factor". A bit sterile is a good way to describe them.
Then they come out with the 991 GT3, and could have easily thrown stick in it and made people happy but chose not to.
Now they are releasing lower than GT3 but better than GTS models that are fun to drive?
I love my 981cs, a GT4 would be great as a track car, but the street usefulness of the car is handicapped on cup tires, the wing is polarizing, black interior only, etc.
Seems like the GTS concept should be re imagined as pure and rough rather than creating another model in the lineup.
06-05-2015, 10:54 AM
#53
Interaction and intimacy in a new car is a pretty rare commodity these days. The demand for the GT4 shows that some people want this. If no-one cared about this, we would all be driving Nissan GTRs.
06-05-2015, 11:43 AM
#54
P.S. Just watched the F488 videos streaming in (Chris Harris) and early write ups from the magazines. Have to say I like Fezzas approach. They have created a turbo monster that so far seems to have the Journos buzzing and quite satisfied. Their cars aren't bristling with comfort features and no one says "I wish it was manual" or "its too fast for the road" or "it should have more feel". They arent following they are leading. They are clearly the piper and the children will follow. With Porsche their piper must think hes trying to herd cats as we are all over the place - or should I say what they want as a company is in 6 different directions at once![/QUOTE]
Have to disagree about ferrari leading with a turbo 488. Mclaren put out a turbo 12c - maybe 4-5years ago?
Porsche has a turbo for how many years?
I don't think the 488 leads at all. It's just a turbo evolution of a 458 which was designed roughly 6-7 years ago.
Have to disagree about ferrari leading with a turbo 488. Mclaren put out a turbo 12c - maybe 4-5years ago?
Porsche has a turbo for how many years?
I don't think the 488 leads at all. It's just a turbo evolution of a 458 which was designed roughly 6-7 years ago.
06-05-2015, 11:49 AM
#55
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Thread Starter
The only thing I think they should retrograde next generation is the electric steering. And give the punters a manual option (or manual only?). Put the engineering money into a decent clutch and box, perfect the brake bias and boost/,modulation and go back to Hydraulic steering.
06-05-2015, 06:25 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
The GT4 is a more involving drive compared to many of the other offerings from Porsche, but when compared across the cars available to choose from new or used its still quite clinical I expect. A few years ago a UK friend chose between a new Gt3 RS and a 964RS (track work) with a 993 C4S as his weekend driver. At the time there two cars cost him 65,000 GBP together. Both were excellent low mile examples. That was 5 years ago and in Jan this year he sold the C4S for 65000 GBP alone enough to buy a brand new Gt4. The 964 RS is now insured for 188000 GBP! It doesn't see much track work these days so he is considering selling it...
Here's our girl when she was just used for Tarmac rally. For a few years she was my track car but after purchasing the GT3 have put her back to Tarmac Rally spec. 14+ years ownership.
06-05-2015, 06:31 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
P.S. Just watched the F488 videos streaming in (Chris Harris) and early write ups from the magazines. Have to say I like Fezzas approach. They have created a turbo monster that so far seems to have the Journos buzzing and quite satisfied. Their cars aren't bristling with comfort features and no one says "I wish it was manual" or "its too fast for the road" or "it should have more feel". They arent following they are leading. They are clearly the piper and the children will follow. With Porsche their piper must think hes trying to herd cats as we are all over the place - or should I say what they want as a company is in 6 different directions at once!
Sorry. I didn't make my point clear. I'm aware of the history of the turbo in production cars (and Fezza play a role here with the F40) - what I'm saying is instead of just throwing a turbo engine in the car pointing to emissions regulations and telling punters "sorry that's it feel happy for the elevated torque you are getting", Ferrari have actually put some engineering design and thought into creating an engine which drives a crave for the higher rev range, staggers the torque based in gear and RpM and U.S. Tuned to feel and sound like a NA engine. I think they have taken a lead with turbo in this regard. Just an observation and opinion as I have not driven any of their turbo offerings past or present...
06-05-2015, 10:10 PM
#59
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
06-05-2015, 10:23 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
I only need to see the weight.
Not sure they can over get to a Cayman size and weight.
I was very impressed by the Cayman S PDK I drove on track the other day.
Very good.
No 911.
What's a Singer weigh?
Not sure they can over get to a Cayman size and weight.
I was very impressed by the Cayman S PDK I drove on track the other day.
Very good.
No 911.
What's a Singer weigh?