toivonen

Hello.

I am a rabid autocrosser and reprobate track rat with a highly modified econobox that goes like stink, a membership to a local road course, and the Hoosier R6's (soon to be R7's when size available) to prove it. My car has all the bushings, coilovers, bolt ons and gauges because race car. It goes like stink and I can keep up with 997 911's if I have my track tires on and more than sometimes beat them in autocross or get pointed by on a track. I love the driveline whine, the NVH and above all, the responsiveness and sensitivity to control inputs and feedback of the because race car mods. What I don't like about all this aftermarket because race car jazz is that the car, while being shockingly reliable for what it is and what it does, is still prone to wierd and unexpected malfunctions.

The reason why I bought a high performance econobox and jazzed it up to "because race car" levels is for stealth and because I did not want to fork over a lot of money. First objective was met, second objective was... still quite expensive but far less than a real car like the GT-3. Hard for the wife and the rest of the world to truly know what's in my hot hatch, she's wonderful but there would be trouble if I bought something ostentatious, we're just like that.

I love the benefits of all this "because race car stuff" but living with having to regrease urethane swaybar bushings 1-2x a year amongst many other things (too many to list, we all know what they are) might get tiring in the future. I would like a "because race car" that already has that stuff from the factory designed from the getgo to handle all this.

They say a racecar for the road cannot be, I know why. I don't want a car that needs a new motor every other race, that's too hard core. But I can deal with NVH, more is better if it means better control. It's hard to find anything fun from the factory these days but I read that the GT-3 is hard core and as long as I can get 60k out of a motor and about the same from the suspension components I'd be ecstatic compared to what I have now driving it like I do now. Since 80% of GT3's get tracked and autocrossed, with that being my purpose, is it really that good?

Furthermore what kind of expenses do you see. How long does a set of brakes last (more or less), pads and rotors doing 10-15 track days and about as many autocrosses a year and how much does it cost?

What about other maintenance and ongoing costs, I want bloody, gruesome details. No gas mileage concerns, I'm already good for low teens high single digits as a DD so no worries here, it can't be any worse?

How lousy are the Sport Cup Tires in the wet?

What do you do in winter when you park the car if your garage gets to and below freezing so the tires don't crack if you don't plan to drive the car?

How much did you miss going from Manual to PDK, do you still think it's "cheating"? It's pretty nifty but I've heel toed every downshift since I was 17, curious to hear how other people miss (or don't) a true manual.

All racecar problems, but looking before I'm leaping; help me out, talk me out of it if you can.

Thanks

fastmd

If you need that level of explanation, this is not the car for you.

shapiroeric

What he said....

Lebo

I agree , no need to bother

sgroer

You are clearly enthusiastic about tracking and it seems like you could handle more machine than you have at your disposal. I have no idea, nor will I make any assumptions about your financial position. But, running 20-30 events per year in a 991 GT3 is going to be very expensive. 2 or more sets of tires at $2k/ set. Brakes are a few hundred at least and you'd likely do that at least once if you drive it reasonably hard. Would you insure it on the track (not cheap) or can you self insure in case something happens?

IMHO, financially stretching to get a car for the track is dangerous in many ways. If it is a stretch, then maybe consider a 997 GT3 or "just" a Carrera of some sort. They are all amazing cars.

Every question you asked has been discussed here at length. Search it out and get informed. Great people here and willing to help, but I think your line of questions was like asking for the cliff's notes version of this entire forum.

Good luck in finding your next track weapon!

ranger22

GT3s still have lots of rubber bushings and this latest iteration is the most civilized yet. Even with all that explanation, it's not clear what your true motives are for changing cars, but you will be surprised at how civilized these cars actually are. Also, they aren't exactly cheap to run at the track, but maybe that doesn't matter to you.

Haku

Just a question, your answer will help me understand a lot about why you ask.
Are you a part of the Toivonen's of Finland who have a car racing heritage as long as ones arm?

toivonen

Money is no object because up until very recently I lived an almost zero consumption lifestyle. I am in my late 30's, debt free and financially independent. It would make (mostly) no difference from one car to the other, within reason. I want something raw and communicative that was designed that way from the factory to avoid all those aftermarket "niggles" and additional maintenance a highly modified track car that still has that fun, responsive, edgy, communicative "tuner special" feel without the headaches.

I tried the regular 911's at local autocrosses that their owners were nice enough to let me use; very smooth and easy to drive but they feel like more capable Toyota Camry's. Driving back to back my Subaru STi is about as quick but I prefer the greater feedback I get from my personal frankencar. One attraction to the Porsches is that they seem to have a bit more edge and are more track ready out of the box than most cars, but I want (a lot) more feeback than a regular 911 offers. Sort of having your cake and eating it too.

My other considerations for a lower maintenance track vehicle (if there is such a thing) was possibly a Lotus or a Spec Miata. The latter starts me on the slippery slope of modding & tuning as you can get a Miata turbo kit real cheap and my tuner amonst other things can build a mean MX-5............

Apologies for lack of search; while I know my own car quite well and what to research, I don't really know what to search for, a problem most novices encounter. Looking for individual feedback on how people like their cars and if you'd blow as much money on a car as a house all over again. Not asking if I can afford it, I know I can, but rather asking the forum was it worth it? It's that question every time I spend as little as a penny that put me in the position to be able to afford this car in the first place!

kosmo

yes

toivonen

No, that is just a screen handle after Henri Toivonen who was my childhood hero when I was growing up in Italy. I basically built my STi in the image and likeness of the Group B rally cars cost no object, and it sure drives like one. It gives me massive smiles on track or even on the street, but what will soon start to grow me weary is the unexpected headaches of coilovers, camber plates, urethane bushings, tuning and all the winter considerations of above etc.

ranger22

Well, you'll get more money back on resale of a Gt3 than you will on modding some lesser (from the factory) car. For that, it's easy to say it's worth it. If raw is your highest priority, then I suggest you focus your search on either a 996GT3 or a 997.1 GT3/RS.

Road Racin

My .02. Autocross is very different then open tracking. Smaller tighter tracks lend themselves better to lower powered inertia cars. You might get a "faster" car and be slower and miserable.
Maybe not...

hfm

If you get the extended leather with red deviated stitching without the sport chrono you get a little red stitched circle instead a bigger boxy one. Don't buy the car, they don't make em like the configurator displays.

Dan (is full of cheese this morning )

CALSE

YES.

I purchased a new E92M3 a couple of years ago when I caught the track bug. It has been relatively modded with BBK, coilovers, camber plates, full aero, track rims/tires, etc. I even had it supercharged until the motor blew up, and I had to replace out of warranty. The M3 often gets better lap times than the more expensive higher HP cars during track events (except at more technical momentum tracks where the lighter lower HP Miatas and S2Ks run laps around me all day long).

I purchased the 991 GT3 because it is track ready in stock form, and it looks awesome! No need to worry about aftermarket part compatibility issues, odd noises, wheel rubbing, fitment trials and errors, etc. Porsche has me covered for 5 years/100,000 miles of tracking!

As far as performance? It kicks ***, and an ultimate cheater car in stock form in my opinion! It goes faster than my modded M3, and I have been within the first 3 fastest lap timers in 3 HDPE events so far (behind Ariel Atom and 911 Cup). However, I still have much to learn with the rear engine weight because I am having a hell of a time keeping the rear tires behind me at times.:O

My cost so far, being the GT3 is about a couple months old, is about $5,000 (oil changes, wheel centerlock tools, race fuel, and new tires).

Once again. YES.:-)

orthojoe

Not sure why some are giving you a hard time, but I think you ask a good question if you are new to Porsche.

I used to the 'because racecar' thing too. It was fun at the time, but I grew tired of chasing gremlins here and there. Also, constantly chasing my tail when it came to managing issues like coolant overheat, transmission overheat, brake fluid boilover, fuel pump overheat, and fuel starvation really took away the fun when you just want to enjoy an uninterrupted track day. It was at that point, that I switched to Porsche.

I started with a boxster spyder. The only thing I needed to do to make the car track ready was to add adjustable lower control arms to gain more negative camber, and an OEM 3rd radiator to keep temps nice and cool. After that, it was the standard brake pad and tire upgrades. The car runs flawlessly and without hassle. Maintenance and consumables are actually cheaper than my last track car (Evo X) because the car is light weight. Change the oil once or twice a year (every 7 track days), the brakes last 2 seasons for me, and NT01 tires last 6 track days.

I expect the GT3 to be even more flawless. The only additional purchases that will be made to make the car track ready are a 1/2 cage, harnesses, and track brake pads. Because the car is significantly faster, I expect consumables to be more expensive (brakes and tires), but it's the price to pay for a higher performance car.

The only caution I might give is that I think the GT3 is a better road course/track car than autocross car. IMO, autocrossing a GT3 is like getting a wild mustang and trying to ride it in a small surburban backyard. Porsche tested the car at the ring, not at the local supermarket's parking lot.

It sounds like you're ready to move onto Porsche. You won't look back. I didn't.