Saw my first 991 GT3 this weekend at WGI
08-25-2014, 06:39 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
What was involved with installing the Recaro seats?
08-25-2014, 07:00 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Hey John, that was my 991 GT3 at Watkins Glen this weekend. I am flattered that you started a thread about my car! I feel obligated to add some of my own observations about the car, especially as related to some of the comments in this thread.
My GT3 was in two run groups at the Glen. I was in white (with you) and my co-driver was in Blue/Yellow. Over three days and 24 runs, not single car passed either one of us. We are both good drivers (of course!) but then there's this car as you mentioned. Collectively over the two run groups, there were 11 GT3's, 1 GT3 RS, 2 Turbo S's, 1 Turbo, and one Cup car. We reeled them in, every single one. A number of them, may even you, came by to say that they were stunned. The only one that I didn't just blow past was the Cup Car. For that one, it took about a lap to catch up to before I could pass.
OK, so now, the engine. I don't know about the underrated horsepower, but from the performance standpoint the GT3 9A1 is clearly a worthy successor to the Mezger. The Mezger deserves plenty of respect, but it's an old design and the 9A1 has passed it up. BTW - I have driven 996 and 997 GT3's and 997 Cups, so I am familiar with Mezgers. The Mezger diehards on this list need to face reality - the 9A1 outperforms it. OK, so the jury is still out on the long term reliability. If Porsche doesn't "race it", and some demand, it will only be because of the complications of racing regulations, which I don't much understand. It certainly won't be because of performance. As for me, I'm not worried about reliability. It has a 5 year warranty even covering track usage. Does the Mezger have a 5 year warranty?
What about the PDK-S? I have driven PDK Turbos, Caymans, Carreras, Cayennes, and Macans. Let's keep it simple. I do not like PDK's. Got that? But I love the PDK-S. As several others have said in this thread, there's no comparison. If you haven't driven the PDK-S, don't use PDK as a reference. It's not the same. Personally I think that Porsche should have given it another name. It should have been called something like PTT, for "Porsche Track Transmission". It's that good.
Regarding the handling, three instructors with GT3's invited themselves to ride with me. All three said about what your instructor said. All three said that they couldn't believe how much better it was than their own GT3. The car goes where you point it. It wasn't until the end of the third day that I was able to get aggressive enough to sense a little understeer. A sheer pleasure to drive.
Another pleasant surprise was the performance and wear of the Cup 2 tires. I was worried that with two drivers and thus the equivalent of six track days, we might have shot tires before it was all over. But no, the left front tire, which shows the most, is less than half worn as far as I can tell. Hot tire pressures were around 30 front and 32 rear. Camber was 1.8 degrees front and 1.8 degrees rear. This will be adjusted later based upon tire wear patterns. I will definitely be using the Cup 2 as my dry weather tire on this car. I will use MPSS's in wet weather.
As John surmised, I didn't have a lap timer installed because I just picked up the car the day before after installation of a CMG roll bar, Recaro seats, and Schroth harnesses. I will be back at the Glen on Sept 15-16 and will have an AiM SoloDL installed by then.
My GT3 was in two run groups at the Glen. I was in white (with you) and my co-driver was in Blue/Yellow. Over three days and 24 runs, not single car passed either one of us. We are both good drivers (of course!) but then there's this car as you mentioned. Collectively over the two run groups, there were 11 GT3's, 1 GT3 RS, 2 Turbo S's, 1 Turbo, and one Cup car. We reeled them in, every single one. A number of them, may even you, came by to say that they were stunned. The only one that I didn't just blow past was the Cup Car. For that one, it took about a lap to catch up to before I could pass.
OK, so now, the engine. I don't know about the underrated horsepower, but from the performance standpoint the GT3 9A1 is clearly a worthy successor to the Mezger. The Mezger deserves plenty of respect, but it's an old design and the 9A1 has passed it up. BTW - I have driven 996 and 997 GT3's and 997 Cups, so I am familiar with Mezgers. The Mezger diehards on this list need to face reality - the 9A1 outperforms it. OK, so the jury is still out on the long term reliability. If Porsche doesn't "race it", and some demand, it will only be because of the complications of racing regulations, which I don't much understand. It certainly won't be because of performance. As for me, I'm not worried about reliability. It has a 5 year warranty even covering track usage. Does the Mezger have a 5 year warranty?
What about the PDK-S? I have driven PDK Turbos, Caymans, Carreras, Cayennes, and Macans. Let's keep it simple. I do not like PDK's. Got that? But I love the PDK-S. As several others have said in this thread, there's no comparison. If you haven't driven the PDK-S, don't use PDK as a reference. It's not the same. Personally I think that Porsche should have given it another name. It should have been called something like PTT, for "Porsche Track Transmission". It's that good.
Regarding the handling, three instructors with GT3's invited themselves to ride with me. All three said about what your instructor said. All three said that they couldn't believe how much better it was than their own GT3. The car goes where you point it. It wasn't until the end of the third day that I was able to get aggressive enough to sense a little understeer. A sheer pleasure to drive.
Another pleasant surprise was the performance and wear of the Cup 2 tires. I was worried that with two drivers and thus the equivalent of six track days, we might have shot tires before it was all over. But no, the left front tire, which shows the most, is less than half worn as far as I can tell. Hot tire pressures were around 30 front and 32 rear. Camber was 1.8 degrees front and 1.8 degrees rear. This will be adjusted later based upon tire wear patterns. I will definitely be using the Cup 2 as my dry weather tire on this car. I will use MPSS's in wet weather.
As John surmised, I didn't have a lap timer installed because I just picked up the car the day before after installation of a CMG roll bar, Recaro seats, and Schroth harnesses. I will be back at the Glen on Sept 15-16 and will have an AiM SoloDL installed by then.
Many have said this car will make even an average driver look good. I think that point is irrelevant to many on this board like Ivan (and hopefully myself?). If you are an above average driver or very familiar with a track you will find this car is unbelievable as it gives you the ability to do so much more, and quicker. Its track cocaine for the initiated.
08-25-2014, 08:02 PM
#34
Hey John, that was my 991 GT3 at Watkins Glen this weekend. I am flattered that you started a thread about my car! I feel obligated to add some of my own observations about the car, especially as related to some of the comments in this thread.
My GT3 was in two run groups at the Glen. I was in white (with you) and my co-driver was in Blue/Yellow. Over three days and 24 runs, not single car passed either one of us. We are both good drivers (of course!) but then there's this car as you mentioned. Collectively over the two run groups, there were 11 GT3's, 1 GT3 RS, 2 Turbo S's, 1 Turbo, and one Cup car. We reeled them in, every single one. A number of them, may even you, came by to say that they were stunned. The only one that I didn't just blow past was the Cup Car. For that one, it took about a lap to catch up to before I could pass.
OK, so now, the engine. I don't know about the underrated horsepower, but from the performance standpoint the GT3 9A1 is clearly a worthy successor to the Mezger. The Mezger deserves plenty of respect, but it's an old design and the 9A1 has passed it up. BTW - I have driven 996 and 997 GT3's and 997 Cups, so I am familiar with Mezgers. The Mezger diehards on this list need to face reality - the 9A1 outperforms it. OK, so the jury is still out on the long term reliability. If Porsche doesn't "race it", and some demand, it will only be because of the complications of racing regulations, which I don't much understand. It certainly won't be because of performance. As for me, I'm not worried about reliability. It has a 5 year warranty even covering track usage. Does the Mezger have a 5 year warranty?
What about the PDK-S? I have driven PDK Turbos, Caymans, Carreras, Cayennes, and Macans. Let's keep it simple. I do not like PDK's. Got that? But I love the PDK-S. As several others have said in this thread, there's no comparison. If you haven't driven the PDK-S, don't use PDK as a reference. It's not the same. Personally I think that Porsche should have given it another name. It should have been called something like PTT, for "Porsche Track Transmission". It's that good.
Regarding the handling, three instructors with GT3's invited themselves to ride with me. All three said about what your instructor said. All three said that they couldn't believe how much better it was than their own GT3. The car goes where you point it. It wasn't until the end of the third day that I was able to get aggressive enough to sense a little understeer. A sheer pleasure to drive.
Another pleasant surprise was the performance and wear of the Cup 2 tires. I was worried that with two drivers and thus the equivalent of six track days, we might have shot tires before it was all over. But no, the left front tire, which shows the most, is less than half worn as far as I can tell. Hot tire pressures were around 30 front and 32 rear. Camber was 1.8 degrees front and 1.8 degrees rear. This will be adjusted later based upon tire wear patterns. I will definitely be using the Cup 2 as my dry weather tire on this car. I will use MPSS's in wet weather.
As John surmised, I didn't have a lap timer installed because I just picked up the car the day before after installation of a CMG roll bar, Recaro seats, and Schroth harnesses. I will be back at the Glen on Sept 15-16 and will have an AiM SoloDL installed by then.
My GT3 was in two run groups at the Glen. I was in white (with you) and my co-driver was in Blue/Yellow. Over three days and 24 runs, not single car passed either one of us. We are both good drivers (of course!) but then there's this car as you mentioned. Collectively over the two run groups, there were 11 GT3's, 1 GT3 RS, 2 Turbo S's, 1 Turbo, and one Cup car. We reeled them in, every single one. A number of them, may even you, came by to say that they were stunned. The only one that I didn't just blow past was the Cup Car. For that one, it took about a lap to catch up to before I could pass.
OK, so now, the engine. I don't know about the underrated horsepower, but from the performance standpoint the GT3 9A1 is clearly a worthy successor to the Mezger. The Mezger deserves plenty of respect, but it's an old design and the 9A1 has passed it up. BTW - I have driven 996 and 997 GT3's and 997 Cups, so I am familiar with Mezgers. The Mezger diehards on this list need to face reality - the 9A1 outperforms it. OK, so the jury is still out on the long term reliability. If Porsche doesn't "race it", and some demand, it will only be because of the complications of racing regulations, which I don't much understand. It certainly won't be because of performance. As for me, I'm not worried about reliability. It has a 5 year warranty even covering track usage. Does the Mezger have a 5 year warranty?
What about the PDK-S? I have driven PDK Turbos, Caymans, Carreras, Cayennes, and Macans. Let's keep it simple. I do not like PDK's. Got that? But I love the PDK-S. As several others have said in this thread, there's no comparison. If you haven't driven the PDK-S, don't use PDK as a reference. It's not the same. Personally I think that Porsche should have given it another name. It should have been called something like PTT, for "Porsche Track Transmission". It's that good.
Regarding the handling, three instructors with GT3's invited themselves to ride with me. All three said about what your instructor said. All three said that they couldn't believe how much better it was than their own GT3. The car goes where you point it. It wasn't until the end of the third day that I was able to get aggressive enough to sense a little understeer. A sheer pleasure to drive.
Another pleasant surprise was the performance and wear of the Cup 2 tires. I was worried that with two drivers and thus the equivalent of six track days, we might have shot tires before it was all over. But no, the left front tire, which shows the most, is less than half worn as far as I can tell. Hot tire pressures were around 30 front and 32 rear. Camber was 1.8 degrees front and 1.8 degrees rear. This will be adjusted later based upon tire wear patterns. I will definitely be using the Cup 2 as my dry weather tire on this car. I will use MPSS's in wet weather.
As John surmised, I didn't have a lap timer installed because I just picked up the car the day before after installation of a CMG roll bar, Recaro seats, and Schroth harnesses. I will be back at the Glen on Sept 15-16 and will have an AiM SoloDL installed by then.
No offense intended towards anyone, but comparisons of the pace of cars are only meaningful when the cars are driven near their limits. For DE, solid driver in top run group of a fast PCA region, within a couple seconds of pros, will usually be good enough for that comparison. That said, data I've seen on lap times indicates that the 991 GT3 is faster than a 997 RS on equal tires (like Sport Cup 2), but I'm not sure that it can hang with a 997 Cup on slicks.
The Cup in the White run group that I mentioned was a 2004 model driven by the son of an instructor. I know the instructor well and can assure you that if he were the one driving the car I would not have been able to keep up with it. With the son, I would gain a lot on him in the turns and I suspect that he might have been lifting to let me pass him on the straights.
I drove the 997 Cup at the Porsche school at Barber Motorsports. The 997 Cup is a beast and I wouldn't say that the 991 GT3 could come close to keeping up with it. The 997 Cup is a harsh beast and would too brutal to drive on the street, not to mention that it is not legal. That brings up the first pleasant surprise that I had when I first picked it up at the factory in Germany. It is a pleasure to drive on the street. I was surprised at how drivable it was. It is truly a dual personality car. I tell people that it has a beauty mode and a beast mode.
I drove the 997 Cup at the Porsche school at Barber Motorsports. The 997 Cup is a beast and I wouldn't say that the 991 GT3 could come close to keeping up with it. The 997 Cup is a harsh beast and would too brutal to drive on the street, not to mention that it is not legal. That brings up the first pleasant surprise that I had when I first picked it up at the factory in Germany. It is a pleasure to drive on the street. I was surprised at how drivable it was. It is truly a dual personality car. I tell people that it has a beauty mode and a beast mode.
Related question is whether semi-slicks or slicks can be put on the 991 GT3 without the car breaking or warranty being voided. If so, that would drop the lap time considerably and it might be able to hang with a 996 Cup on slicks (capable of mid 1:50s at WG?). If not, I'd have to ask why the 997 GT3 could handle those tires but the 991 GT3 can't.
My understanding of why Porsche said no to slicks on 991 GT3 is they are not street legal therefore not TUV/Dot approved. They arent going to extend a warranty to a car running on tyres that dont conform to a international standard for road use.
One of our members is already running R6 Hoosiers last week. Not sure is hes posted an update yet....
One of our members is already running R6 Hoosiers last week. Not sure is hes posted an update yet....
Ivan. This is a great write up and matches my early track thoughts on the car perfectly.
Many have said this car will make even an average driver look good. I think that point is irrelevant to many on this board like Ivan (and hopefully myself?). If you are an above average driver or very familiar with a track you will find this car is unbelievable as it gives you the ability to do so much more, and quicker. Its track cocaine for the initiated.
Many have said this car will make even an average driver look good. I think that point is irrelevant to many on this board like Ivan (and hopefully myself?). If you are an above average driver or very familiar with a track you will find this car is unbelievable as it gives you the ability to do so much more, and quicker. Its track cocaine for the initiated.
Ivan, did they de-activate airbag lights for you with the Recaros or are they on?
Macca, it is track cocaine. Can you please fill us in regarding the member who put Hoosiers on? I assume 19 inch wheels. Any issues with RWS, etc, once you find out?
08-25-2014, 08:31 PM
#35
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Personally, I wouldn't use the Hoosier R6 on a 911, especially a powerful one. Have heard of or myself seen too many incidents where the tire failed, sometimes catastrophically. Combined stresses due to high lateral load, high vertical load in rear of the car, and high torque appears to cause various modes of tire failure. Similar things can happen with any tire (so inspect them carefully before every session), but failure rate for the R6 seems significantly higher than average.
08-25-2014, 08:41 PM
#36
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My Recaro seats were installed by Jerry Pelligrino at EPE here in Massachusetts. When he installed the seats in my 2012 GTS several years ago, he was able to eliminate one (or several?) airbag warning messages by changing some ECU codes.
For the GT3, Jerry said that he was not able to clear the warning that was triggered by the removal on the passenger seat weight detector. He said that to get around that problem he had to reinstall the passenger seat weight detector onto the Recaro seat. I don't know how hard that was, but it works fine!
Let me know if you have any other questions.
For the GT3, Jerry said that he was not able to clear the warning that was triggered by the removal on the passenger seat weight detector. He said that to get around that problem he had to reinstall the passenger seat weight detector onto the Recaro seat. I don't know how hard that was, but it works fine!
Let me know if you have any other questions.
08-25-2014, 10:22 PM
#37
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I won't mention the name of the instructor who rode along with you and made the comment about "defying the laws of physics", but let's just say he wears a red track suit... I had dinner with him and his comments about your car were both impressive and very entertaining.
08-25-2014, 10:26 PM
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08-26-2014, 12:06 AM
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And that makes me wonder how well the 991 GT3 suspension would cope with stickier tires, given that it was apparently designed around the Sport Cup 2 or similar, for a combo of road and track use. Running slicks, would the springs be too soft, damping not right, big alignment change needed, etc.? And does it have adjustable sway bars? The cup cars are of course designed around slicks and have plenty of adjustability.
08-26-2014, 12:13 AM
#41
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That was my thoughts too. If someone was determined to run slicks. He might have to start changing in some Cup parts. It that possible without a ton of work. Do they have the same pickup points?
08-26-2014, 12:20 AM
#42
Race Director
If I understand correctly, N rating is about whether Porsche has approved the specific tire, not really about making a distinction between DOT R-comps like the Sport Cup vs semi-slicks or slicks. Whereas didn't Porsche specifically say no slicks on the 991 GT3? And wasn't there a question of whether 'slicks' includes DOT semi-slicks? I remember all of this being discussed months ago, but I don't know where it stands now.
As to Mark's point, I think he's on the money.
08-26-2014, 12:30 AM
#43
Race Director
"While the GT3 is sitting here in the shop waiting for a new motor, we've snapped few pictures of the suspension and made a 991 GT3 suspension overview. This beast is more of a GT3 Cup than 991.
We've noted major differences between the previous generations of GT3 cars and the current generation of regular 991 cars."
His full review is here:
http://www.elephantracing.com/tool-b...n-overview.htm
08-26-2014, 12:32 AM
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Given that Porsche says only tires recommended and tested by Porsche should be used on the 991 GT3 (not that we all haven't done otherwise) it follows that slicks or semi-slicks would not be "approved". I'm still curious as to whether slicks or semi-slicks were specifically approved for the 997 GT3. I know people have used them without issues, but that's not the same thing.
As to Mark's point, I think he's on the money.
As to Mark's point, I think he's on the money.
08-26-2014, 12:39 AM
#45
Race Director
I'm more interested in what works than what's approved. From what I can tell, 997 GT3 has been empirically shown to be able to handle semi-slicks and slicks, and without substantial suspension mods. Question is whether 991 GT3 can do the same. Right now, my plan would be to track the car with the Sport Cup 2 or something similar (eg, Nitto NT01 if the size becomes available), but would be nice to have the option of using something stickier.