AW

I'm waiting for my 991 GT3 and like many of you, I'm very disappointed I can't order it with the sports bucket seats option which is apparently is available in very other country.

I was wondering if any of you has experience buying the seats in Europe and then replacing the stock ones. I'm pretty sure that's what I want to do. I currently own a 997 GT3 with bucket seats and I will miss them big time.

Thanks

Arnaud

skxf430

You can order the the GT2 buckets seats from Suncoast.

jimmermd

Is there any similarity between 997 and 991 seat mounting that would allow you to keep your old seats and swap them with the new?

Mike in CA

There are pages and pages of posts devoted to this topic so do a search if you want the complete scoop. The short answer is that while the 997 seats will physically fit the mountings in the 991, the plugs/wiring for the airbag and weight sensors in US 991 cars aren't compatible with the old style 997 buckets which are still being sold ROW.

Z356

Correctamundo. Well put, Mike!

For a longer response, see link below and post #16 et al.:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...t-seats-2.html

Saludos,
Eduardo

AW

Yeah I tried using search and the feature doesn't work very well. I don't want to use GT2 seats for the 997 era. I want to buy real "rest of the world" 991 GT3 seats.

I'm wondering if anyone in europe knows a distributor I could work with.

Thanks!

Arnaud

Z356

One and the same.

Carnewal
Vijverbeek 8
Maarkedal
Belgium

http://www.carnewal.com/Seats

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

orthojoe

Are they? Are you certain? I was under the impression that while the physical seats are the same, the wiring harnesses are different. I need to take a look under the seat of a 991/981 myself to find out...

edit: I just looked at the PET catalog for the wiring harness on the 997 vs the 991 seats. They are definitely different part numbers. I will try to get visual confirmation as well.

Mike in CA

Even if the Euro 997 harness is different part # than the Euro 991 harness, it doesn't necessarily mean that a Euro 991 seat will plug up to a US 991 harness and work properly. That is the issue AFAIK; keep us posted Joe if you find something contrary.

Z356

Joe: Let's rationally go over it.

Current 'new' ROW 991 'sport bucket seats' are physically the same as the 'old' 997 gt2 'sport bucket seats'. But US DOT regulations changed from the previous 997/987 model era. Now, Porsche can NOT offer 'new' or 'old' 'sport bucket seat' in US on its 991 (or any other US model) until seats meet the new DOT regulations! So Porsche sets up the electronics in the US spec 991/981 so that the gt2 'sport bucket seat' (new or old) made for Porsche can NOT work with those models. By 'work', I mean activate the airbags in case of impact or enable the passenger weight sensors to operate as intended & designed. I don't think its a question of same/different wiring harness or plug type, although these are probably not the same to make it 'obvious' to all of their incompatibility! And it's a lot more complicated than wiring harnesses! The electronic computers inside a US spec 991/981 deliberately prevent these airbag seats from working as designed...so that you can NOT retrofit them in violation of the DOT rule for that model sold in the US market!

Thus effectively, for the US 991/981, it renders these expensive 'old' or 'new' gt2-type 'sport bucket seat' the same as a cheaper non-airbag 'racing' bucket seat available in the aftermarket from Recaro or other suppliers. Anyone can put one of these in a US 991/981 AFTER you purchase the vehicle! Similarly, anyone can buy a 'new' or 'old' gt2 'sport bucket seat' from Carnewal in Europe or Suncoast in the US and put them in. But they simply will not work as intended in your US spec 991 Porsche model!

Regardless, whether you buy Recaro aftermarkets or Porsche gt2 'sport bucket seats' whose airbags will not work in your 991 gt3, please remember to check first with your insurance carrier if you are planning to drive in the street and not just at the track! So caveat emptor.

The 'regulations' that the US DOT is worried about (and why it didn't approved the 997 gt2 'sport bucket seat' for the 991/981) has to do with the position(s) of the airbags relative to the occupants relative to their height of the seat, folding mechanism, etc. And what happens in an accident if the airbags are deployed relative to where the occupants of the seats are located relative to the new DOT standards of 'safety'. That is why Porsche is currently working on a version of the 'NEW' 918 Spyder 'sport bucket seat' that hopefully will meet ALL the more stringent current US DOT regulations and was supposed to be introduced in the MY2015 991 gt3 RS. Or so we hope.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

.

sunnyr

Eduardo, thanks for the explanation. One question though (and maybe the answer is in the above paragraph and I am missing it) - do you know if the US DOT didn't approve GT2 bucket seats for 991 cause:

a. The safety regulation is more stringent now vs what it was when it was approved for 997.

Or

b. Seating position in 991 is different than 997 making the GT2 seats less safe in 991?

(or of course c. both)?


What I don't get is, just by not selling the GT2 seats here in US for 991, Porsche would have been in compliance of the DOT regulations, so why did they go out of the way to make the wiring harness (and software) incompatible? For extra credit? .

TIA

orthojoe

This is absolutely true. We just don't know. However, I'll go over it rationally below.

Are you sure? Do you know this as a fact? It's certainly possible you are correct, but I would not state this as a fact unless you know something we all don't know.

Ed, I'm not saying that you are incorrect, but for this to be true, Porsche would have to go through the extra step of programming the car to recognize that the seat is ROW and actually place some program in the seat to distinguish it as ROW. It is possible that Porsche's workaround is simply to have different harnesses and not offer the seat for sale in the US.

Are the 991 standard sport seats placed in US cars different than ROW 991 sport seats as well? I'm guessing no. My GUESS is that this is simply a wiring harness incompatibility between model types. The wiring harness between different seat types is the SAME. There are different connections that are used/not used on the seat side, but from the side of the car, it is the same. Otherwise, I would not have been able to swap out my heated sport seats to sport bucket seats on my spyder.

The wiring is not that complicated in these cars. The harnesses between a 996 and 997 are different, however, you CAN re-wire the harnesses to allow compatibility between the 2 model types WITHOUT triggering any lights and still allowing the airbag system to function properly. I know this, because I've done it. I transplanted my 987 heated sport seats into a 986 by rewiring each connection after studying the wiring diagrams for the cars. Everything still works down to the heated seats and NO lights.

The wiring for sport buckets is VERY simple since it only involves one connection to the air bags, one to the seat belt buckle, and one to the passenger seat occupancy detector on the passenger side. No power seat, no memory seat, no heat. I would argue that at 997 GT2 bucket could be rewired to work with a 991, but nobody has tried yet.

There is certainly the possibility that Porsche went the extra step to somehow place a program into ROW bucket seats to make them incompatible. This would also mean that they would take the extra step to make the 997 bucket seats incompatible if wired properly as well. If this is the case, then a company like durametic would need to be consulted to find a 'workaround' to the 'block'.

I'm willing to bet that it's simply a wiring issue unless someone can prove me wrong. Please someone prove me wrong if you can, because I am sourcing a ROW clubsport package.

Excellent question.

Z356

Even though I stay at a Holiday Inn Express often, the exact answer to that question still eludes me. We really don't know. But it's pretty easy to assume that safety regulations at DOT might be more stringent now than in the 997 era. And the seating position in the 991 might be slightly different vis a vis the placement of the airbags. We know the latter appears to be a problem for DOT approving in the US the new HEIGHT & TILT ADJUSTABLE 'sport bucket seats' on the PASSENGER side of the 918 Spyder. Read part E in post #16 at: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...t-seats-2.html

Remember also that MY2012* (see asterisk below) for Porsche produced an interesting scenario here in the United States. There were various models that could have been ordered with factory gt2 'sport bucket seats'. One was my '12 Boxster Spyder and it was ordered & delivered with 'sport buckets seats'. Note that the earliest 991 in the US were ALSO imported & sold as MY2012, although earlier PCNA imported & sold late production .2 997's as MY2012's. In principle, PCNA could have offered the gt2 'sport bucket seats' in those early 991's just as it did on a '12 Spyder or '12 997 RS 4.0 Limited Edition or '12 997 gts...but it didn't. Why not? DOT regulations had to be the same / all MY2012. Was the position of the occupants on the 'sport seat buckets' less safe in the 991 than the 997 in relationship to the airbags? Or did Porsche, knowing the DOT regulations would change for MY2013, decided not to bother offering the 'sport bucket seats' for such a short period of time on their new 991? We don't know.

The answer is 'The Legal Liability'.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

*Although MY2012, all those with 'sport bucket seats' Porsches were imported & delivered in calendar year 2011. DOT rules are calendar year mandated, rather how manufacturer classifies their MY. So we might be talking here about Calendar Year 2011 DOT rules (sport buckets ok) and Calendar Year 2012 DOT rules (sport buckets no longer ok), if you get my drift.
.

Mike in CA

Joe, perhaps you are already aware of this and have a workaround, (which in itself would be interesting to hear about ) but thought I'd mention that only cars that have been ordered with the CS package from the factory have the welded in mounting points and brackets and since US cars can't be ordered with CS, no US 991 GT3's have them.

orthojoe

Thanks, Mike. I'm aware that the mounting points will not be there. This was the case for the 997s as well. The solution is to hand the car and the cage over the Tony at TC design and let him do his work.