Mike in CA

This....

If you're early for the first apex you may miss the second or have to slow down to adjust mid-corner, and if you're late for the first then you'll likely be early for the second and be unable to put power down as soon as you should for the upcoming straight.

I was taught to imagine a line to the entrance of the first apex and a line to the exit of the second apex. Where the lines intersect is where you turn in for the second apex. This works for low and medium speed corners especially.

orthojoe

Really? That just seems odd. How is ESC different than PSM? I don't believe PSM cuts power....?

I always thought TC cuts power (straight line or corner), and VSC/ESC uses rear brake intervention to save you.

Macca

Yes, TC cuts power. ESC uses brakes/e-diff. If using the car on the track prolonged pad life if ESC off.

Macca

Thanks Mike.

I might also add this can be the fastest way of getting around a very long medium speed sweeper in a 911. Instead of sitting deppe in teh sweeper and turning in gradually tempting oversteer, you come in faster and closer to teh initial apex, over shoot under brakes then turn in hard and once enough speed scrubbed off apply the throttle to touch the second ppex on leaving the sweeper. If I had the bandwidth Id put up some GoPro from my track 993 to tell you what I mean but this island is still on Satellite connection!

Mike in CA

Didn't mean to step on your toes, Macca. I started just by posting the diagram, figuring you could refer to it, then got carried away with my own explanation....

MaxLTV

Yep, my feedback is a mix of driving this particular car at a track and tracking a 911/GT3 in general, and I'm not able to tell which is which, so it's up to you guys.

Also, as I mentioned it's not sorted out - just as it came from the dealer. I only torqued the wheels to make sure they do not come off like some suggested here .

I still would take this car over M3 in any aspect, except the seat. But seat is very driver-specific. At under 150lbs, I just do not reach the bolsters anywhere except shoulders.

Also, regarding that specific weight transfer question - I tried 997 GT3 and 997.2 C2S, and significant weight transfer there on acceleration and braking was why I did not want those cars (not deciding factor, but negative) - it seemed too much. Here front to back weight transfer is very similar to other sports cars. But side to side it stays very flat compared to M3. Also, M3 has very distinctive "taking the set" behavior. This car takes the set quicker and with less motion, so it's more difficult to understand when it happens. It's not a point against the car - just need practice in this specific car.

Just to reiterate - I'm ecstatic about everything except seats. But I am not sure would get stock buckets even if they were offered - they are too wide for me (I tried in previous get Gt3), and I'd rather not deal with extra cushions to make them fit. I just hoped that I could use sport seats for a while till someone figures out aftermarket install not to be trailblazer there, but it does take away from my driving and my safety too much.

Macca

Not at all Mike. Was good to have your input....

Macca

Max. Its always good to have the fresh feedback of someone who has just got out of one of these cars first time. Keep the reports up. Hopefully you can add some more on Monday after your Sunday track day....

P.S. I have sport buckets but if this were my only track car I would fit Recaro Pole positions similar to the ones I have in the 993. Im bigger than you (200lb, 6'2) and the sport buckets fit like a glove and at least so far at fast road Gs have held me in no complaints, however the Recaro PPs are a bit smugger, much lighter and very good value. I wouldnt hesitate to install these (without starting a debate about insurance and airbags etc which I do not feel is particularly relevant on the track).

Manifold

Weight transfer is mainly a function of wheelbase, track widths, CG height, and rates of longitudinal and lateral accel/decel. Pitching and rolling are responses to weight transfer which depend on suspension stiffness, so less pitch/roll doesn't necessarily mean less weight transfer.

The shorter wheelbase in 997 and earlier 911s makes the longitudinal weight transfer more pronounced, but consider the advantages:

- Better braking due to more even front/rear vertical loads under heavy braking.

- Lots of load on rear tires under heavy acceleration, enabling high lateral grip while also really putting the power down.

MaxLTV

That's exactly why I was running TC with ESC off when I got a bit braver - to save brakes and to prevent any intervention other than simple cutting of power. I had TC engage when I managed to light up the rear with a puff of smoke, so it's pretty lenient too.

I definitely felt the weight in the rear. It's not bad - actually an interesting challenge. I once dropped a rear wheel in the dirt a bit (at track out of Turn 1 ) and the rear slid out. I counter steered like I would do in M3 - very quick turn in direction of slide and then returning it back also rather quickly once the car gets back on the line. To my surprise, once I did that, the rear continued sliding in the same direction as before, just slower. With more mass at the rear, counter-steer was not long enough to overcome the inertia, it seems. It was fun, except for the walls being too close. I'll do some skidpad and autocross to get better feel for this car in such situations.

MaxLTV

Right - I meant pitch and roll rather than actually weight transfer. I mean, as a driver I cannot measure actual weight transfer while driving other than by using pitch and roll as indicators.

Manifold

With a car that stays flatter, you definitely need to rely more on feeling, through your body, the longitudinal/lateral forces which cause the weight transfer.

cingulus

Thanks for the info

mqandil

Cingulus, just wanted to share with you some video's about double apex corner. I live near Portland Oregon, and we are fortunate to be near PIR (Portland international raceway), which by the way have a double apex corner on turn #4 & 4A. Attached is a diagram of the track to show you the turns, and below are 2 video links, the first is with an instructor explaining the turns and proper line at low speed (around 55 sec in video), and the second video is for 911 GT3 RS at the track. You can observe what they do when they approach turn 4 & 4A, and should give you an idea. Both videos are not mine. I actually have few of my own videos with my 911 C4S but I need to convert them first from Sony Format and I will try to post in next few days, but this should give you an idea. Both Mike and Macca did an outstanding job explaining it but I thought some video may help, although this corner is a little different than most double Apex corners, as it really involves missing the first apex (staying close to the middle at turn in) and hitting the second apex (C4A). It is basically a sweeping late apex turn. Once in the turn, it's mostly a matter of throttle steering at a fairly high speed and staying left for the first half of the turn, then turning into the second apex. Unwind exiting apex to track left and go back to as much throttle as your car will handle briefly; before brushing the brakes for Turn C5. See video links below

shizzle

Max - I couldn't help but smile when I read your review. Sounds like almost exactly the same experience I had with my C2S when I took it out to the Glen a couple years ago (minus the 45 degree sliding though)