Autoweek GT3 review. Purists get ready.
07-16-2013, 12:35 PM
#106
I don't have any experience with PDK, but from the info currently disseminated, there is a "paddle neutral" feature built in. I'd also imagine that you might be able to use the gear shift lever to pop into neutral when you'd like to coast.
No question, the involvement level is different. "Better" or "worse" is up to interpretation and what's important to the individual.
For me, I'm willing and excited to give this PDK-only GT3 a try. My hope is that the whole package is so compelling, that it provides me with an entirely new driving and ownership experience.
Just my opinion.
0Q991
No question, the involvement level is different. "Better" or "worse" is up to interpretation and what's important to the individual.
For me, I'm willing and excited to give this PDK-only GT3 a try. My hope is that the whole package is so compelling, that it provides me with an entirely new driving and ownership experience.
Just my opinion.
0Q991
07-16-2013, 12:36 PM
#107
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This discussion regarding MT vs PDK is an incredible waste of time and bandwidth. NOW LISTEN UP; MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS ARE DEAD IN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS. END OF STORY.
Porsche, Ferrari and other sport car manufactures should put on training sessions for MT diehards to learn how to use PDK or the like. I realize they will not know what to do with their left leg but with appropriate training they will soon learn the benefits of left foot braking in performance driving. Not only will they drive faster and better but find their left leg has something to do.
Porsche, Ferrari and other sport car manufactures should put on training sessions for MT diehards to learn how to use PDK or the like. I realize they will not know what to do with their left leg but with appropriate training they will soon learn the benefits of left foot braking in performance driving. Not only will they drive faster and better but find their left leg has something to do.
07-16-2013, 12:41 PM
#109
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This discussion regarding MT vs PDK is an incredible waste of time and bandwidth. NOW LISTEN UP; MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS ARE DEAD IN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS. END OF STORY.
Porsche, Ferrari and other sport car manufactures should put on training sessions for MT diehards to learn how to use PDK or the like. I realize they will not know what to do with their left leg but with appropriate training they will soon learn the benefits of left foot braking in performance driving. Not only will they drive faster and better but find their left leg has something to do.
Porsche, Ferrari and other sport car manufactures should put on training sessions for MT diehards to learn how to use PDK or the like. I realize they will not know what to do with their left leg but with appropriate training they will soon learn the benefits of left foot braking in performance driving. Not only will they drive faster and better but find their left leg has something to do.
It's not dead yet.
07-16-2013, 12:43 PM
#110
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Nick...you must be in Marketing/PR. You've managed to not only take what I say out of context and use it for your own agenda, but you're trying to convince people that like a certain thing that they DON'T and must do it your way.
Do you even know WHY Ferrari went to the paddle shift transmission? Hmmm.??? It was because most of their customer demographics don't know how to drive a sport manual transmission and were burning up clutches in the first few thousand miles....which of course made them very angry. So the way to get around that was to take the responsibility of shifting out of their customers hands and do it for them.
Basically "our customers are too dumb to drive a manual, so we'll do the shifting for them".
TrackFan I agree...offer both and you'd cover all your bases...
Do you even know WHY Ferrari went to the paddle shift transmission? Hmmm.??? It was because most of their customer demographics don't know how to drive a sport manual transmission and were burning up clutches in the first few thousand miles....which of course made them very angry. So the way to get around that was to take the responsibility of shifting out of their customers hands and do it for them.
Basically "our customers are too dumb to drive a manual, so we'll do the shifting for them".
TrackFan I agree...offer both and you'd cover all your bases...
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07-16-2013, 12:57 PM
#111
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Nick...you must be in Marketing/PR. You've managed to not only take what I say out of context and use it for your own agenda, but you're trying to convince people that like a certain thing that they DON'T and must do it your way.
Do you even know WHY Ferrari went to the paddle shift transmission? Hmmm.??? It was because most of their customer demographics don't know how to drive a sport manual transmission and were burning up clutches in the first few thousand miles....which of course made them very angry. So the way to get around that was to take the responsibility of shifting out of their customers hands and do it for them.
Basically "our customers are too dumb to drive a manual, so we'll do the shifting for them".
TrackFan I agree...offer both and you'd cover all your bases...
Do you even know WHY Ferrari went to the paddle shift transmission? Hmmm.??? It was because most of their customer demographics don't know how to drive a sport manual transmission and were burning up clutches in the first few thousand miles....which of course made them very angry. So the way to get around that was to take the responsibility of shifting out of their customers hands and do it for them.
Basically "our customers are too dumb to drive a manual, so we'll do the shifting for them".
TrackFan I agree...offer both and you'd cover all your bases...
One day while my 360 was being serviced, the service manager allowed me drive a 360 with F1. After driving it for about 15 minutes I was sold. I quickly arranged for the dealership to sell my 360 manual and order another 360 with F1. I have never looked back. The F1/PDK offer the best of both worlds. The days of me depressing a heavy clutch were over.
I know it is difficult to change and accept new technology. It takes an open mind to do so. Give PDK a try and after a few months you can thank me.
07-16-2013, 01:08 PM
#112
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It won't happen for me. If all high performance cars were only offered with auto transmissions. I'd drive older cars, or convert a new one to manual.
As an example. If I was offered any F1 car to drive of any year. I'd pick the 1967 Lotus 49. No gimmicks. No aids. All driver. Yes, Jim Clark was my hero.
As an example. If I was offered any F1 car to drive of any year. I'd pick the 1967 Lotus 49. No gimmicks. No aids. All driver. Yes, Jim Clark was my hero.
07-16-2013, 01:29 PM
#113
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It's not as simple as: Does it have a manual - True/False?
It's the sum of all parts. For example, BMW still offers manual transmissions in the US for the M cars, such as the F10 M5. I drove both tranny choices and for that car the DCT is hands down the clear winner. The manual feels disconnected, loose, rubbery and doesn't pair well with the turbo engine whatsoever. It increases turbo lag and makes the car far LESS engaging than the dual clutch. Yes, less engaging. The manual just makes the car feel handicapped and silly.
On the other hand, the manual experience in my light on technology boxster Spyder is nothing short of magnificent. You ARE a part of the mechanical drivetrain. The clutch, gear shift, engine all work in perfect harmony with no software (at least nothing noticeable) intervention.
Perhaps the PDK-S is simply better suited to the 991 GT3 experience. Still, while BMW's manual is lousy, they did offer the choice. And some enthusiast owners still prefer it.
BTW, I drive the Spyder most days while the M5 sits in the garage collecting dust, but that's not solely due to the transmission...it's the sum of all parts.
It's the sum of all parts. For example, BMW still offers manual transmissions in the US for the M cars, such as the F10 M5. I drove both tranny choices and for that car the DCT is hands down the clear winner. The manual feels disconnected, loose, rubbery and doesn't pair well with the turbo engine whatsoever. It increases turbo lag and makes the car far LESS engaging than the dual clutch. Yes, less engaging. The manual just makes the car feel handicapped and silly.
On the other hand, the manual experience in my light on technology boxster Spyder is nothing short of magnificent. You ARE a part of the mechanical drivetrain. The clutch, gear shift, engine all work in perfect harmony with no software (at least nothing noticeable) intervention.
Perhaps the PDK-S is simply better suited to the 991 GT3 experience. Still, while BMW's manual is lousy, they did offer the choice. And some enthusiast owners still prefer it.
BTW, I drive the Spyder most days while the M5 sits in the garage collecting dust, but that's not solely due to the transmission...it's the sum of all parts.
07-16-2013, 02:07 PM
#114
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I tried white wine once. It was fine but I much prefer red. Wrote a letter to the wine industry. Told em to stop making white because more people drink red and it tastes better. Still waiting for them to stop making white....
Turbos are faster and more fuel efficient than NA lumps for a given displacement. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
The "one is better than the other" MT vs PDK debate is stupid and there are endless examples as to why it falls flat.
It's about personal preference in an expensive toy. My money, my preference.
Turbos are faster and more fuel efficient than NA lumps for a given displacement. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
The "one is better than the other" MT vs PDK debate is stupid and there are endless examples as to why it falls flat.
It's about personal preference in an expensive toy. My money, my preference.
Last edited by Nizer; 07-16-2013 at 02:22 PM.
07-16-2013, 02:19 PM
#115
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This discussion regarding MT vs PDK is an incredible waste of time and bandwidth. NOW LISTEN UP; MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS ARE DEAD IN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS. END OF STORY.
Porsche, Ferrari and other sport car manufactures should put on training sessions for MT diehards to learn how to use PDK or the like.
Porsche, Ferrari and other sport car manufactures should put on training sessions for MT diehards to learn how to use PDK or the like.
The Boxster, Cayman, and currently available 991 variants are all offered with manual. So is the new Vette, and I hear the new M3 will be also. 'Budget' sports cars like the BRZ and Miata also.
Ferrari, Lambo, etc. are exotic sports cars and their owners aren't representative of typical sports car enthusiasts. I rarely see these exotics at the track, and when I do, they're usually in lower run groups, or being driven gingerly by their owners.
If we're talking about pro racing, do whatever it takes to be faster. But otherwise, there are valid reasons to prefer manual, just as there are valid reasons to prefer double-clutch.
And all this whining about the transmission may lead to Porsche eventually offering manual in the GT3 (hopefully 6-spd), so I say we keep whining.
07-16-2013, 04:32 PM
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MaxLTV, what you say makes sense, but how many 991 GT3 owners will have the experience and skill to drive it anywhere near the limit on the track? Based on the polls and other data we've seen, I'd say just a small fraction. And it certainly can't be driven anywhere near its limit on the road if one is sane, so the argument doesn't apply there at all. The videos where reviewers are sliding the car around on the road are misleading; they're inducing those slides for show, sometimes on wet roads where that's easier, but in general they're not anywhere close to the limit.
1. I do think Porsche SHOULD have offered a choice, even though I'd have chosen PDK otherwise.
2. I can see manual being more entertaining to drive outside of the track and do not dispute that. Although on such powerful cars as the new GT3, shifting is not really necessary, other than for fuel economy. Most legal speeds can be achieved on 2nd gear, and how many of manual GT3 drivers need to downshift to 1st for acceleration in city driving? Still, it's probably more entertaining to have the manual to play with. I actually had great fun driving across mountains in Italy in a manual car with a 90hp diesel engine that had a useable rev. range of under 1000rpm. Had to shift every few seconds just to keep up with the traffic.
07-16-2013, 04:44 PM
#119
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Just to clarify my position:
1. I do think Porsche SHOULD have offered a choice, even though I'd have chosen PDK otherwise.
2. I can see manual being more entertaining to drive outside of the track and do not dispute that. Although on such powerful cars as the new GT3, shifting is not really necessary, other than for fuel economy. Most legal speeds can be achieved on 2nd gear, and how many of manual GT3 drivers need to downshift to 1st for acceleration in city driving? Still, it's probably more entertaining to have the manual to play with. I actually had great fun driving across mountains in Italy in a manual car with a 90hp diesel engine that had a useable rev. range of under 1000rpm. Had to shift every few seconds just to keep up with the traffic.
1. I do think Porsche SHOULD have offered a choice, even though I'd have chosen PDK otherwise.
2. I can see manual being more entertaining to drive outside of the track and do not dispute that. Although on such powerful cars as the new GT3, shifting is not really necessary, other than for fuel economy. Most legal speeds can be achieved on 2nd gear, and how many of manual GT3 drivers need to downshift to 1st for acceleration in city driving? Still, it's probably more entertaining to have the manual to play with. I actually had great fun driving across mountains in Italy in a manual car with a 90hp diesel engine that had a useable rev. range of under 1000rpm. Had to shift every few seconds just to keep up with the traffic.
07-16-2013, 05:39 PM
#120
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