Chris Harris drives the 991 GT3
06-13-2013 | 12:20 AM
#91
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 10,594
Likes: 6
From: THE Republic
The 'Club Sport' option has historically consisted of a Lexan rear window, unpadded roll bar, sport bucket seats with harnesses, and a fire extinguisher, of which only the fire extinguisher is allowed by our DOT. It is expected that sport bucket seats of the current design, or the prototype design Chris is sitting in, will eventually be available here.
ahhh good thing we have our Govt to save us from ourselves.
And thats why they need access to our phone/internet records!
06-13-2013 | 12:41 AM
#92
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 29,452
Likes: 1,701
From: S. Florida
I just got back from a spirited 1hr drive with my 6GT3. As I was soaking in its rawness, its vibrations, the mechanical tugging and 'talking' of the road through the steering wheel, the raspy metallic clatter + burble at idle before I finally left it in the garage with the exhaust ticking, I often thought about this thread. I concluded that emotion cannot be rationalized nor debated. I agree with AP: "Just drive the damn thing!" and stick with whichever choice gives you the most goose-bumps.
Well said. If I owned a prior GT3, I'd be in absolutely no hurry to trade it in on a new one. I don't own one, not for lack of desire, or because the previous versions didn't suit me, but because the stars just weren't aligned for me to have one before.
But they are now and since I want a new GT3, not someone's hand-me-down regardless of how nice it is, the 991 GT3 is my only option. Fortunately, as you say, the prospect of this car does give me goose bumps and I can't wait to own and drive the damn thing.
But they are now and since I want a new GT3, not someone's hand-me-down regardless of how nice it is, the 991 GT3 is my only option. Fortunately, as you say, the prospect of this car does give me goose bumps and I can't wait to own and drive the damn thing.
Lets hope its still the most track worthy as well.
Ill try a new Corvette. It may feel OK, it may break on the first weekend on the way to the track or surely on track or not, but it will be 60k and has been promised to be track worthy with harness ready ventilated sport seatsn dry sump and e-diff.. Ill probably trade it for the next RS lol, but at least its manual, albeit with a hideous ***.
Agreed Pete...
There was never a doubt in my mind about whether the new car would be faster, handle better or go harder... there was never a doubt that they'd sell all their units in light of the broadened market appeal. I expected to hear nothing but rave reviews on these aspects and he was right to address the facts separately... He like many of us still seems to have a personal leaning towards the manual and it would have been nice to be given that choice...
There is one thing many have commented on here as if its a given but in fact it can't be tested or reviewed. Reliability... CH and every other reviewer can tell us its a better car for a given 1-2 hour test, how it screams to 9000rpm with a strained mechanical roar etc etc but how will all the new technology hold up in the longer term? that is the question that won't be determined any time soon... I have my fingers crossed that some of the early adopters will be track junkies so we can find this out...
There was never a doubt in my mind about whether the new car would be faster, handle better or go harder... there was never a doubt that they'd sell all their units in light of the broadened market appeal. I expected to hear nothing but rave reviews on these aspects and he was right to address the facts separately... He like many of us still seems to have a personal leaning towards the manual and it would have been nice to be given that choice...
There is one thing many have commented on here as if its a given but in fact it can't be tested or reviewed. Reliability... CH and every other reviewer can tell us its a better car for a given 1-2 hour test, how it screams to 9000rpm with a strained mechanical roar etc etc but how will all the new technology hold up in the longer term? that is the question that won't be determined any time soon... I have my fingers crossed that some of the early adopters will be track junkies so we can find this out...
Well find out, immcovering all bases and preserving the 4.0 for now.
Looking for a comfy daily driver but not enough time.. Eddie is looking for me ;-)
06-13-2013 | 01:06 AM
#93
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 982
Likes: 2
From: The Great White North
This just makes the wait for mine much harder..
This initial review confirms what I had suspected that this car would be, which it exactly what I am looking for....My one minor concern remains how will it be to drive in normal day to day driving since I have only driven DCTs on the track and never on the road....Damn, I want to drive this thing now...
This initial review confirms what I had suspected that this car would be, which it exactly what I am looking for....My one minor concern remains how will it be to drive in normal day to day driving since I have only driven DCTs on the track and never on the road....Damn, I want to drive this thing now...
06-13-2013 | 01:13 AM
#96
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,305
Likes: 1,287
From: West Vancouver and San Francisco
Back on topic - I think this is as good a review as Porsche could hope for from Chris, given lack of manual. Looks like Porsche really outdid themselves in everything else, though. I do not get those talking about electronic nannies - there is a button to turn them off. E-diff is not a nanny, and neither is better traction at the front - it's just a better design, better engineering. There is a huge difference between MASKING loss/fluctuation of traction at the front and MINIMIZING this deficiency, and it seems that 991 GT3 does the latter.
Cannot wait to drive this car. Now I am getting paranoid about the dealer bumping me down the queue.
06-13-2013 | 01:43 AM
#97
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,329
Likes: 5,263
From: Denver
How are they going to get more power out of this motor? Even higher redline? Higher compression? My personal request is for 6 individual throttles and velocity stacks, but that would be a surprise.
06-13-2013 | 02:08 AM
#98
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,085
Likes: 247
From: North Bay Area, CA
Interesting question. I'm sure they will have to have some actual hardware bits and/or ECU changes to hang the power increase on, but AP said in the initial interview that the new motor was very consevatively rated at 475HP and they could easily have listed it for 500 in the GT3. It may not take much to get a claimed 499; maybe just a relatively subtle change to intake or exhaust.
06-13-2013 | 02:16 AM
#99
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
I just got back from a spirited 1hr drive with my 6GT3. As I was soaking in its rawness, its vibrations, the mechanical tugging and 'talking' of the road through the steering wheel, the raspy metallic clatter + burble at idle before I finally left it in the garage with the exhaust ticking, I often thought about this thread. I concluded that emotion cannot be rationalized nor debated. I agree with AP: "Just drive the damn thing!" and stick with whichever choice gives you the most goose-bumps.
06-13-2013 | 03:54 AM
#100
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,140
Likes: 14
From: New Zealand
GrantG. Mike in CA has part answered your question - but its a very good one indeed. 133p/l is a very very high benchmark to meet. I am of the understanding that the current 991 GT3 is making "at least" 469 bhp (475 PS). I think "closer to 500" may be a bit exaggerated personally.I believe on the dyno many will find it actually making a bit more than that. The overwhelming impression I get from those that have any knowledge of the programme is that the 991 chassis GT3 over delivered initial expectations and performance perameters. I get a strong feeling there has been some "marketing horse trading" going on to position the 991 GT3 in light of the coming GT3RS and about to be delivered TT/S. AP was quotes in more than one source saying the car delivers far more than its quoted 475 PS. Hes now gone quiet on that point. I suspect one of the hierarchy have said "just shut up about that!". This is not dissimimilar to the Ring time which I believe spanned 7.23-7.26 but will likely be stated officially at 7.25 or 7.26.
To answer your question I think in part the engine already delivers a little more than is quoted which makes getting 505-510 PS not quite such a large jump. I expect a new ram air rear spoiler that will be more aggressive at feeding air to the intake manifold which I also expect to have a light revision. I dont see a RPM hike but I see the power cure peaking later in the Rev range. I believe we will see a slightly more aggressive max cam profile and a lighter (titanium) exhaust with freer flowing cats. I would be surprised to see any increase in compression ratio and if there is it would be no more than 0.1/-0.2. I do expect to see a revised engine management system.
If we assume the current power unit is probably making circa 490 PS then the above revisions excluding any compression changes should be good for 20PS IMHO.
In terms of talk of reliability I have been quite surprised at the issues still being experienced even with the end of line Mezger engine. I read on 3.8GT3 & RS boards and 4.0RS boards of a number of small failure/recall items and reliability issues. Even an engine thats as developed as this still has the odd issue.
I do know for fact that the factory are very pleased with the new DFI engine reliability in general. The 991 GT3 engine is still relatively unknown in reliability terms but has now over 18 months of development and the base architecture over 2.5 years so its looking good on face value. I know Porsche were experiencing increasingly expensive recall campaigns and issues with smaller and smaller runs of mezger design based engines so I believe they will be looking forward to some savings in after sales service....
06-13-2013 | 05:05 AM
#101
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
looks like it does everything better than a 997....
Conclusion is you need to own 2 Porsche GT cars:
1. Manual transmission 1999-2011 GT3 "classic"
2. 991 GT3 or latest greatest etc.
Point is everybody should own an older 911 manual tranny to go with a new 911. They complement each other.
Conclusion is you need to own 2 Porsche GT cars:
1. Manual transmission 1999-2011 GT3 "classic"
2. 991 GT3 or latest greatest etc.
Point is everybody should own an older 911 manual tranny to go with a new 911. They complement each other.
+100
Different animals that would complement each others well provided one has the means (and wife
) to afford them.Sticking with my 4.0 for sure but trying to save for a second hand 991gt3 or ideally RS (assuming they do not offer MT) down the line.
06-13-2013 | 06:01 AM
#102
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Maybe a silly newbie question: itsn't oversteering trough corners like Chris Harris does on almost all public roads in his reviews very risky?
Isn't there an extremely small margin for error?
I'm worried that my common sense will jump out the window one day and I'll attempt the same (you know, monkey see, monkey do!)
Isn't there an extremely small margin for error?
I'm worried that my common sense will jump out the window one day and I'll attempt the same (you know, monkey see, monkey do!)
06-13-2013 | 06:08 AM
#103
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Neanicu. Sorry - my comments were a little tongue in cheek about the PDK-S. Ive been posting on the 991 GT3 board since its inception and contributed a fair amount of data I have come across for others to read. There is some historical perspective to my "offensive" I must confess. I gave up on the 991 GT3 board weeks ago and signed off in a thread stating I wouldnt re appear until naysayers stopped slaughtering threads which were designed to bring new information to the table (as I have tried to do in teh past along with some others here). Afterall there is only so much you can take of people dissing something they have never seen let alone driven. At the time I said Id comment when the motor noter's started to write about the car and we actually had facts to go on. That has happened today. Most on here probably weren't interested when I talked of the first test drivers getting 7.26 on the ring from this car, nor the feedback I had had from those who had passenger-ed in the car, driven it or been close to the development teams tuning efforts at the Ring. Chris's experience was fully expected this morning when it went to print. I know also how well it will review on track now too, and I think we still have some surprises in stall there too. So some of my rhetoric and hyperbole needs to be taken in a historical context on this board - I can see how you may have read it isolated to this thread only.
P.S. My point of view regarding Porsche's transmission choice has never waviered. I knew what transmission the car would ship with in late Oct/early Nov as previously stated. Porsche did too. My personal view is that if it had have been offered only as manual I would have been happiest of all. If it had have been offered as a choice I would have been least happy of all. Being offered at PDK only was not the worst nor the best outcome but one Im happy with as I have driven manual cars all my life and will still retain my manual 993 to get the old skool kick when I need it. The reason Im not upset at PDK is that it had to happen (sometime). Also the systems in these modern cars are bow so integrated and networked that I simply do not believe a manual and PDK version would have provided a similar experience - one or the other would have become more popular than the other or a better drive and more capable (probably knowing Murphy I would have chosen the wrong transmission choice LOL!).
So to clear the air thats about it.
As many reading this know Im big on predictions. I dont think Ive been far off the mark in the last 8 months, especially compared to others.
Here's my future predictions -
The 991 GT3 will become a stand out sales success in the next 6 months seeing considerable back orders. This is in part due to its larger audience but also the motor journalism industry will have a large part to play especially once track reviews are announced.
Porsche will announce the use of the DFI engine in December for teh coming Motorsport Calander year (2014). The engine will essentially be the 991 GT3 engine with some small revisions.
German magazines will record very competitive sub 7.30 Ring times with the new GT3.
Someone will formally record a 7.22 Ring lap in the new GT3 before Xmas and it will become recognised as an official lap time.
Lightweight one piece bucket seats will debut on the 991 GT3RS
The 991 GT3RS will weigh 40kg less than the GT3 and make 499 bhp (505 PS). It will retain the 3.8L engine and have some additional aero.
The 991 GT3RS will lap the Ring in 7.20 (Porsche)
The 991 GT3RS will cost 25-30K USD more than the GT3 base price
P.S. My point of view regarding Porsche's transmission choice has never waviered. I knew what transmission the car would ship with in late Oct/early Nov as previously stated. Porsche did too. My personal view is that if it had have been offered only as manual I would have been happiest of all. If it had have been offered as a choice I would have been least happy of all. Being offered at PDK only was not the worst nor the best outcome but one Im happy with as I have driven manual cars all my life and will still retain my manual 993 to get the old skool kick when I need it. The reason Im not upset at PDK is that it had to happen (sometime). Also the systems in these modern cars are bow so integrated and networked that I simply do not believe a manual and PDK version would have provided a similar experience - one or the other would have become more popular than the other or a better drive and more capable (probably knowing Murphy I would have chosen the wrong transmission choice LOL!).
So to clear the air thats about it.
As many reading this know Im big on predictions. I dont think Ive been far off the mark in the last 8 months, especially compared to others.
Here's my future predictions -
The 991 GT3 will become a stand out sales success in the next 6 months seeing considerable back orders. This is in part due to its larger audience but also the motor journalism industry will have a large part to play especially once track reviews are announced.
Porsche will announce the use of the DFI engine in December for teh coming Motorsport Calander year (2014). The engine will essentially be the 991 GT3 engine with some small revisions.
German magazines will record very competitive sub 7.30 Ring times with the new GT3.
Someone will formally record a 7.22 Ring lap in the new GT3 before Xmas and it will become recognised as an official lap time.
Lightweight one piece bucket seats will debut on the 991 GT3RS
The 991 GT3RS will weigh 40kg less than the GT3 and make 499 bhp (505 PS). It will retain the 3.8L engine and have some additional aero.
The 991 GT3RS will lap the Ring in 7.20 (Porsche)
The 991 GT3RS will cost 25-30K USD more than the GT3 base price
On your predictions:
1) the 991 RSR will be using the current engine also in 2014 - Hartmut Kristensen confirmed this in Sport Auto - latest issue. A new engine might be ready in late 2014, the question is whether Porsche can change during the season the engine, probably not.
2) German magazines to record sub 7:30 or even 7:22: Keep in mind that boxster s/cayman S /991S were on average 6 seconds off Porsche factory claim..so my guess is for 991 GT3: 7:32/7:31. I know you wont like it...but lets see.
Lets see who will right once the Sport Auto test in september is there, if I loose, 2 beers for you..if you loose - one bottle of best NZ wine for me
I´ll come back to on that one..
06-13-2013 | 08:41 AM
#104
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 255
Likes: 101
From: Toronto
Agreed 100%. Could see owning it and loving it in addition to my 997, but not as a replacement without MT.
06-13-2013 | 08:57 AM
#105
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,140
Likes: 14
From: New Zealand
Hi Porschecollector. We meet again LOL!
Just a few qualifiers.
1). I did not wish to be specific when I mention this but have already said in a previous post so I may as well elaborate here. The Motorsport Calendar is Porsche (super)Cup one make series. The RSR for open serious will as you say be later. The DFI engine will debut in the one make series before being pressed into open international competition. Remeber this is essentially the first ground up engine redesign for Porsche Motorsports for 15 years.
2). Happy to wager you here. A European magazine will achieve and publish a <7.30s no problem. This car is much easier to extract a quick lap time form than its predecessor. Once journalists have done initial track reviews on the new GT3 I think this will become easier to see. The 7.22 time will not be achieved necessarily by a magazine driver but possible by a factory driver as was recently the case with a Porsche factory driver who achieved a 7.37 in the 991S and that number is now recognised as an "official time" on some websites holding Ring data. The 991 GT3 has already been driven at 7.22s on the Ring, please be sure of this, but of course it needs properly recording and validating in the public domain. Porsche will not recognize this time in their marketing and advertising - they will need the margin to make the RS look more impressive!
Andreas I think we have been waging bets on various things here for 8 months now. Im not sure if you owe me more beers than I owe you wine or the other way around. However Im happy to be patient.
Just a few qualifiers.
1). I did not wish to be specific when I mention this but have already said in a previous post so I may as well elaborate here. The Motorsport Calendar is Porsche (super)Cup one make series. The RSR for open serious will as you say be later. The DFI engine will debut in the one make series before being pressed into open international competition. Remeber this is essentially the first ground up engine redesign for Porsche Motorsports for 15 years.
2). Happy to wager you here. A European magazine will achieve and publish a <7.30s no problem. This car is much easier to extract a quick lap time form than its predecessor. Once journalists have done initial track reviews on the new GT3 I think this will become easier to see. The 7.22 time will not be achieved necessarily by a magazine driver but possible by a factory driver as was recently the case with a Porsche factory driver who achieved a 7.37 in the 991S and that number is now recognised as an "official time" on some websites holding Ring data. The 991 GT3 has already been driven at 7.22s on the Ring, please be sure of this, but of course it needs properly recording and validating in the public domain. Porsche will not recognize this time in their marketing and advertising - they will need the margin to make the RS look more impressive!
Andreas I think we have been waging bets on various things here for 8 months now. Im not sure if you owe me more beers than I owe you wine or the other way around. However Im happy to be patient.