991 GT3 - just a sportier Carrera?
06-03-2013, 10:47 PM
#16
Mike's again to Porsche's rescue! 
Can they do anything wrong in your eyes? As intelligent and experienced as you are, I sometimes wonder if you're just another fanboy? At least 991 Carrera was a debate, this is clear-cut fail. Heavier, no Metzger (or whatever engine, different than Cup car), no manual, electric steering, 4-Wheel steering, not easy to maintain, not easy to re-build, all sorts of electronic nannies, so on and so forth...
Come on! Even you should admit that 991 GT3 is a complete departure from original concept, by a huge margin! 991 Carrera actually is not that much further off 997, as GT3 is from the prev. generation.
Can they do anything wrong in your eyes? As intelligent and experienced as you are, I sometimes wonder if you're just another fanboy? At least 991 Carrera was a debate, this is clear-cut fail. Heavier, no Metzger (or whatever engine, different than Cup car), no manual, electric steering, 4-Wheel steering, not easy to maintain, not easy to re-build, all sorts of electronic nannies, so on and so forth...Come on! Even you should admit that 991 GT3 is a complete departure from original concept, by a huge margin! 991 Carrera actually is not that much further off 997, as GT3 is from the prev. generation.
06-03-2013, 10:53 PM
#17
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Mike's again to Porsche's rescue! Can they do anything wrong in your eyes? As intelligent and experienced as you are, I sometimes wonder if you're just another fanboy? At least 991 Carrera was a debate, this is clear-cut fail. Heavier, no Metzger (or whatever engine, different than Cup car), no manual, electric steering, 4-Wheel steering, not easy to maintain, not easy to re-build, all sorts of electronic nannies, so on and so forth...
Come on! Even you should admit that 991 GT3 is a complete departure from original concept, by a huge margin! 991 Carrera actually is not that much further off 997, as GT3 is from the prev. generation.
Can they do anything wrong in your eyes? As intelligent and experienced as you are, I sometimes wonder if you're just another fanboy? At least 991 Carrera was a debate, this is clear-cut fail. Heavier, no Metzger (or whatever engine, different than Cup car), no manual, electric steering, 4-Wheel steering, not easy to maintain, not easy to re-build, all sorts of electronic nannies, so on and so forth...Come on! Even you should admit that 991 GT3 is a complete departure from original concept, by a huge margin! 991 Carrera actually is not that much further off 997, as GT3 is from the prev. generation.
- It has no disadvantages from rear engine that I could feel. Feels and drives like a better Cayman to me. That pretty much made my plan to buy a Cayman and spend another $40K on power and handling upgrades irrelevant.
- It does not force a driver to learn "driving 911" - you drive it like any other sports car. No weirdness. Quirks are cute, but I'd rather focus on driving than overcoming quirks and imperfections. I get enough of that at work. It's like there are employees who understand what needs to be done almost telepathically and deliver without BS, there are some that need a kabuki theatre performance to make them get an idea. 991 gets Porsche closer to the former.
- It seems to handle track well - from my friends who upgraded it has great brake cooling, no issues like oil starvation, great even tire wear etc. Most previous generations, maybe except 997.2 had some horror stories
- It's fast for its power - testament to fixed handling and great ability to keep tires planted at all time. Speed is important - for a sports car it's a key measure of progress and engineering effort.
- It finally looks its price on the inside
- Electric steering feels weird, indeed, but I found it tolerable - it still communicates all the info just no noise. It's unsettling at first. Reminds me of how they added slight white noise to digital phones at first (and probably still do) because lack of natural noise in digital sound made people thing the call got dropped every time there was a pause is conversation.
- It did feel more grand turismo than sportscar to me, which was the only thing that made me not buy it right away.
- the price is excessive, but all cheapr alternatives had more issues in my view.
So it seems like a great car. Now comes GT3, with MUCH more power, MUCH better looks, better brakes, better suspension, better version of PDK, better sound, real dry sump, big tank, and all other track goodies for a price of well- optioned Carrera S. Why is it a failure?
No Mezger - well, it had to happen at some point, it was just too long in the tooth. Heavier? Please, it's a meaningless difference. Just pee before you go on the track. It does bug me too that it's not lighter, but even at 10/10 that would not matter. I ran my last 2 events with a baby seat in the back and stuff in the trunk (attached, not loose) because those few pounds do not matter - still passed half of GT3s and all Turbos in a 4 door family car on street tires (in the instructor group). Most drivers, even the best of us, can gain more performance out of extra 30 minutes of sleep (or one fewer beers
) before a track day than out of 75lb of weight loss to the car. Electronic nannies - well, there is a button for that. Just turn them off. No manual - yes, I do not get why Porsche would do it to manual fans, but I am looking forward to learning full-time left foot braking. Center locks and no bucket seats at release - that's just plain wrong, but that was the case for previous generations of GT3 as well, so it's just lack of improvement rather than degradation...Will the electronics, such as RWS, break? Who knows... Electronics has been reliable for many years now. But it's easy to make it fail "gracefully" without causing a crash - much easier than with brakes, tires and other much higher risk components. So if I can tolerate those risks, RWS failure risk seems immaterial.
So it's a great car with not that many flaws. That's an opinion of someone who has no reason to be a fanboy of anything
06-03-2013, 11:00 PM
#18
This thread is discussing whether the 991 GT3 is a true "GT3" or a hopped up Carrera.
Everything you wrote points to the latter which sounds like exactly what you're looking for.
Buy one and enjoy.
I do find your claim that you liked the 993 and haven't considered Porsche since strange though. The previous-gen GT3's were much closer to the 993 in my view than this new one. This reminds me of the transition from the 993 > 996 in terms of the change in character. Some people obviously preferred the 996 for various reasons as will be the case here...
06-03-2013, 11:37 PM
#20
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I agree with nearly everything except the problem with the motor is that Porsche has decided it isn't ready for prime time on the racetrack. It shouldn't have been put in their "GT3" until it was.
All we've got to do now is come up with and agree on the new car's real name.
How about 991 GTS-R
All we've got to do now is come up with and agree on the new car's real name.
How about 991 GTS-R
That name sounds about right....
06-03-2013, 11:37 PM
#21
Race Director
06-04-2013, 12:13 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Mike, thanks for keeping it real. I am going to the dealer next week to place a deposit on a GT3 RS.
06-04-2013, 12:45 AM
#25
Race Director
06-04-2013, 01:11 AM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Mike's again to Porsche's rescue!
Can they do anything wrong in your eyes? As intelligent and experienced as you are, I sometimes wonder if you're just another fanboy? At least 991 Carrera was a debate, this is clear-cut fail. Heavier, no Metzger (or whatever engine, different than Cup car), no manual, electric steering, 4-Wheel steering, not easy to maintain, not easy to re-build, all sorts of electronic nannies, so on and so forth...Come on! Even you should admit that 991 GT3 is a complete departure from original concept, by a huge margin! 991 Carrera actually is not that much further off 997, as GT3 is from the prev. generation.
Unlike many of us,Mike chose to vote with his wallet and he actually is a very valuable asset of knowledge to me and to my future buying decision making.
06-04-2013, 02:35 AM
#27
I'm sure the 991 GT3 will be an amazing car. I'm sure Porsche will sell all they make.
However, up until now, all of the 14,000+ GT3's ever made had a race-derived engine, a manual transmission, and the best steering on the planet.
The new car does not have a race-derived or race-proven engine. It is not available with a manual. It has electric steering. Therefore, it differs significantly from the roots and history of the GT3. And that's before the unproven RWS is considered. Before the 20" bling wheels or unproven centerlocks are mentioned.
Not sure why the sport bucket seats are such a sore point. They were not offered in the 996 GT3 or the 997.1 GT3 either.
With all that taken into account, it's no wonder the car is a huge unknown. It will certainly be a great car. Whether or not it's a great GT3 still needs to be proven.
I think AP himself said it best 'Don't worry: the new car is a brilliant daily driver, but with an even more sporting edge. . .' (Apr '13 CAR magazine) Notice how 'daily driver' is mentioned first. It's a street car first. Remember that and all will make sense.
Like many here, I'm on 'a list' for one. Still not sure if I'll actually buy one or not. Only time will tell.
However, up until now, all of the 14,000+ GT3's ever made had a race-derived engine, a manual transmission, and the best steering on the planet.
The new car does not have a race-derived or race-proven engine. It is not available with a manual. It has electric steering. Therefore, it differs significantly from the roots and history of the GT3. And that's before the unproven RWS is considered. Before the 20" bling wheels or unproven centerlocks are mentioned.
Not sure why the sport bucket seats are such a sore point. They were not offered in the 996 GT3 or the 997.1 GT3 either.
With all that taken into account, it's no wonder the car is a huge unknown. It will certainly be a great car. Whether or not it's a great GT3 still needs to be proven.
I think AP himself said it best 'Don't worry: the new car is a brilliant daily driver, but with an even more sporting edge. . .' (Apr '13 CAR magazine) Notice how 'daily driver' is mentioned first. It's a street car first. Remember that and all will make sense.
Like many here, I'm on 'a list' for one. Still not sure if I'll actually buy one or not. Only time will tell.
06-04-2013, 05:42 AM
#28
Well, GT3 has a fully reworked engine, and that is THE GOOD thing.
Maybe Porsche uses the GT3 buyers as test monkeys, to see how the engine performs in real life, before they put it into a proper race car?
Bodykit looks good as well.
The PDK, rear wheel steering and electric steering, all imho of course, are the counterweight bad things.
Maybe Porsche uses the GT3 buyers as test monkeys, to see how the engine performs in real life, before they put it into a proper race car?
Bodykit looks good as well.
The PDK, rear wheel steering and electric steering, all imho of course, are the counterweight bad things.
06-04-2013, 05:54 AM
#29
I agree with nearly everything except the problem with the motor is that Porsche has decided it isn't ready for prime time on the racetrack. It shouldn't have been put in their "GT3" until it was.
All we've got to do now is come up with and agree on the new car's real name.
How about 991 GTS-R
All we've got to do now is come up with and agree on the new car's real name.
How about 991 GTS-R
06-04-2013, 05:57 AM
#30
... It does not force a driver to learn "driving 911" - you drive it like any other sports car. No weirdness. Quirks are cute, but I'd rather focus on driving than overcoming quirks and imperfections. I get enough of that at work. It's like there are employees who understand what needs to be done almost telepathically and deliver without BS, there are some that need a kabuki theatre performance to make them get an idea. 991 gets Porsche closer to the former....