Excellent Panorama Interview "On Three"
05-24-2013, 09:10 AM
#61
Burning Brakes
Okay, I have to pipe up here...
While it is not (!) my job to defend AP or PAG—I'm just supposed to ask questions, and do my best to bring you good information—it is my job to be fair and balanced. To that end, I have to say I'm discouraged by some interpretations I see posted here and elsewhere. And not just re: my interview with AP
While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years. I guess that's the passion that I have enjoyed for many years showing through.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. Maybe a bit tired of having to be the one who must answer to the purists. That last point is my interpretation, and I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM, from 997.1 GT3 (which I hated!) to 997.2 Carrera GTS non-sport suspension and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 (which were insanely brilliant). Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
I've been disappointed to see some of the failures we've seen of late (cam parts, hoses, etc.). I'd prefer to see five-lug hubs on the GT3, and there are those within Porsche who do, too. And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
John (911Slow) is right: There are people within PAG who watch this board with interest. Partly because something very cool happens here (which is why I haunt these parts more than most), partly because they're enthusiasts themselves, and partly because they enthusiastically build these cars for you.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast. There are others at PAG, but few are out in the open or as forthright and honest. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Harris.
Just my two cents, offered very (!) respectfully. Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
pete
While it is not (!) my job to defend AP or PAG—I'm just supposed to ask questions, and do my best to bring you good information—it is my job to be fair and balanced. To that end, I have to say I'm discouraged by some interpretations I see posted here and elsewhere. And not just re: my interview with AP
While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years. I guess that's the passion that I have enjoyed for many years showing through.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. Maybe a bit tired of having to be the one who must answer to the purists. That last point is my interpretation, and I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM, from 997.1 GT3 (which I hated!) to 997.2 Carrera GTS non-sport suspension and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 (which were insanely brilliant). Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
I've been disappointed to see some of the failures we've seen of late (cam parts, hoses, etc.). I'd prefer to see five-lug hubs on the GT3, and there are those within Porsche who do, too. And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
John (911Slow) is right: There are people within PAG who watch this board with interest. Partly because something very cool happens here (which is why I haunt these parts more than most), partly because they're enthusiasts themselves, and partly because they enthusiastically build these cars for you.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast. There are others at PAG, but few are out in the open or as forthright and honest. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Harris.
Just my two cents, offered very (!) respectfully. Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
pete
05-24-2013, 10:34 AM
#62
Rennlist Member
Right on!!! lmao...
Haven't seen many cars marketed for even occasional track use that have their tyres last 3 years... F me! I doubt the OEM tyres could go that long even if it was kept to the speed limit on the street for that period of time... Seriously! unless we're talking 1000 miles per year which doesn't even justify ownership of these vehicles...
if they don't want them tracked, EASY!!! Show us marketing material of them boulevard cruising and driving along a country road to a favourite picnic spot, not lapping a track against the clock and power sliding through corners in the hands of pro racing car drivers...
Haven't seen many cars marketed for even occasional track use that have their tyres last 3 years... F me! I doubt the OEM tyres could go that long even if it was kept to the speed limit on the street for that period of time... Seriously! unless we're talking 1000 miles per year which doesn't even justify ownership of these vehicles...
if they don't want them tracked, EASY!!! Show us marketing material of them boulevard cruising and driving along a country road to a favourite picnic spot, not lapping a track against the clock and power sliding through corners in the hands of pro racing car drivers...
only question that should have been asked to factory rep in that interview would be - what is the reason behind the decision to have an option for European turbo cars to be optioned with 5 lug wheels and not to have this option for US market? why not to offer 5 lug option for gt3 car? have any single factory rep did a simple research among club racers who drive RS cars to see who many of them replaced CL system to 5 lugs?
deal is, it looks like a lot of marketing decisions now only increase post-purchase costs to redo and modify those cars to make them acceptable for intended use, so, for a customer it only increases irritation. and if car is no longer can be modified for intended use, if they will not even have kits or alternative hubs and carriers to be put instead of what it has stock then it will be a big deal breaker. and it is sad "that the person" in charge who oversees that 991 gt3 project at PAG has no desire to understand what percentage of clientele he pushes away with all this BS.
on other side it is probably a simple market research showing that new Asian markets that are anticipated produce majority of a profit for factory do want 20 inch blings and will eat all they throw to them no matter what so they simple do not care anymore that US market wants from them.
Last edited by 911SLOW; 05-25-2013 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Language. Guys please keep it civil and to RL's usual standards. Thanks.
05-24-2013, 10:46 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
According to both the Porsche website car configurator and the U.S. dealer configuration application, five lug wheels are standard on the 991 Turbo and a no-charge option on the 991 Turbo S.
05-24-2013, 10:52 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
as for a factory to make a set of wheel carriers for 5 lug system is not such big of a deal. they should simply finally understand that no one who drives those cars on a track and cares to come back alive does not want to use this system, period.
05-24-2013, 01:37 PM
#65
Race Director
Thread Starter
Okay, I have to pipe up here...
While it is not (!) my job to defend AP or PAG—I'm just supposed to ask questions, and do my best to bring you good information—it is my job to be fair and balanced. To that end, I have to say I'm discouraged by some interpretations I see posted here and elsewhere. And not just re: my interview with AP
While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years. I guess that's the passion that I have enjoyed for many years showing through.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. Maybe a bit tired of having to be the one who must answer to the purists. That last point is my interpretation, and I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM, from 997.1 GT3 (which I hated!) to 997.2 Carrera GTS non-sport suspension and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 (which were insanely brilliant). Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
I've been disappointed to see some of the failures we've seen of late (cam parts, hoses, etc.). I'd prefer to see five-lug hubs on the GT3, and there are those within Porsche who do, too. And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
John (911Slow) is right: There are people within PAG who watch this board with interest. Partly because something very cool happens here (which is why I haunt these parts more than most), partly because they're enthusiasts themselves, and partly because they enthusiastically build these cars for you.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast. There are others at PAG, but few are out in the open or as forthright and honest. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Harris.
Just my two cents, offered very (!) respectfully. Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
pete
While it is not (!) my job to defend AP or PAG—I'm just supposed to ask questions, and do my best to bring you good information—it is my job to be fair and balanced. To that end, I have to say I'm discouraged by some interpretations I see posted here and elsewhere. And not just re: my interview with AP
While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years. I guess that's the passion that I have enjoyed for many years showing through.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. Maybe a bit tired of having to be the one who must answer to the purists. That last point is my interpretation, and I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM, from 997.1 GT3 (which I hated!) to 997.2 Carrera GTS non-sport suspension and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 (which were insanely brilliant). Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
I've been disappointed to see some of the failures we've seen of late (cam parts, hoses, etc.). I'd prefer to see five-lug hubs on the GT3, and there are those within Porsche who do, too. And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
John (911Slow) is right: There are people within PAG who watch this board with interest. Partly because something very cool happens here (which is why I haunt these parts more than most), partly because they're enthusiasts themselves, and partly because they enthusiastically build these cars for you.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast. There are others at PAG, but few are out in the open or as forthright and honest. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Harris.
Just my two cents, offered very (!) respectfully. Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
pete
05-24-2013, 02:00 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
+1.
Respectfully screaming frustrations and concerns is what these forums are for with all different POV's.
If PAG is reading along, so much the better.
They make the calls and they are confident or not so much about sales numbers, brand name reputation and warranty claims. Like we are.
I never minded the CL's, but no benefit, more of a function follows form..
If they are enthusiasts, yet have to defend the PDK only, electric steering decision for good or for bad, that's their job and they should be fired id they don't sell their product but it does not mean they have to believe themselves what they are telling us and its okay for us to voice concerns and frustrations on these pages in strong terms but respectfully.
Respectfully screaming frustrations and concerns is what these forums are for with all different POV's.
If PAG is reading along, so much the better.
They make the calls and they are confident or not so much about sales numbers, brand name reputation and warranty claims. Like we are.
I never minded the CL's, but no benefit, more of a function follows form..
If they are enthusiasts, yet have to defend the PDK only, electric steering decision for good or for bad, that's their job and they should be fired id they don't sell their product but it does not mean they have to believe themselves what they are telling us and its okay for us to voice concerns and frustrations on these pages in strong terms but respectfully.
05-25-2013, 12:54 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
its not hard to figure out why some of these decisions were made. im sure in perfect world, ag wishes they offered a choice of pdk or mt but costs to certify mt were too high to justify to corporate. the 1st gen cl was offered because theyre 'cool'. despite issues, they cannot go back to 5 lugs now without admitting it was a mistake in 1st place. again corporate will not do that. i am at a loss for why harness compatible seats are not offered though.
05-25-2013, 03:59 PM
#68
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While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. ... I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM.....Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
......And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast.
........Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
I remember disagreeing with you on PASM when I bought my 997 GT3. . . glad to hear that you now are a fan.
If it was that good in the 4.0 I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the 991.One thing you have to keep in mind, however, is that AP is just a PAG rep to most here; you have the benefit of having developed a personal relationship with him and have gotten to size him up face to face. So I suppose it's easy for people to fall down the rabbit hole of sophomoric name calling.
Now the most important point, When do you get to drive the new metal????
05-25-2013, 05:34 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
I suspect they are still tuning the car. AP is aware of the consternation over no MT and no sport bucket seats in the US. I'll wager they are making final last minute adjustments which will enhance the driving experience. Remember, the journalist get to test the car first and most are MT enthusiast. The car is going to have make them converts to PDK. Tall order.
If they like the car but carp about lack of involvement sans MT it will have a negative affect on sales. Which is fine with me. I get my car that much sooner.
If they like the car but carp about lack of involvement sans MT it will have a negative affect on sales. Which is fine with me. I get my car that much sooner.
05-25-2013, 05:41 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Pete great to read a post of yours on this board. Thanks for that message, with which I agree. It's a shame when folks get on here and start personal attacks, particularly of AP who has brought us amazing machinery and I trust the new 3 will be as well. Other folks who have a nexus with folks inside PAG have stated the same about AP (think over on Rennteam)
I remember disagreeing with you on PASM when I bought my 997 GT3. . . glad to hear that you now are a fan. If it was that good in the 4.0 I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the 991.
One thing you have to keep in mind, however, is that AP is just a PAG rep to most here; you have the benefit of having developed a personal relationship with him and have gotten to size him up face to face. So I suppose it's easy for people to fall down the rabbit hole of sophomoric name calling.
Now the most important point, When do you get to drive the new metal????
I remember disagreeing with you on PASM when I bought my 997 GT3. . . glad to hear that you now are a fan.
If it was that good in the 4.0 I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the 991.One thing you have to keep in mind, however, is that AP is just a PAG rep to most here; you have the benefit of having developed a personal relationship with him and have gotten to size him up face to face. So I suppose it's easy for people to fall down the rabbit hole of sophomoric name calling.
Now the most important point, When do you get to drive the new metal????
To answer your last question, there's something on the books.
I'm afraid that's all I can say at this point, though. 
Best,
pete
05-25-2013, 07:18 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
I am completely at a loss as to why Porsche is pushing (shoving, really) centerlocks down everyone's throat. What about redundancy and risk management? I can see how, from a both time and risk management perspective, centerlocks would be optimal for a race team where fast tire changes matter in a race and where parts can be changed after every race to minimize the chance of a catastrophic failure, but how does this equation translate when applied to any GT3 user?
I would a assume a GT3 user would much prefer the redundancy (risk minimization) of 5 lugs over the time "advantage" brought by centerlocks with a race crew in a hot pit. Even a small deviation from the recommended handling and maintenance of the centerlocks could produce catastrophic consequences. Not so for the 5 lugs.
Finally, not offering the GT3 owners the ability to choose the option that best suits their bling, time, & risk equation is plain moronic. IMO, of course.
I would a assume a GT3 user would much prefer the redundancy (risk minimization) of 5 lugs over the time "advantage" brought by centerlocks with a race crew in a hot pit. Even a small deviation from the recommended handling and maintenance of the centerlocks could produce catastrophic consequences. Not so for the 5 lugs.
Finally, not offering the GT3 owners the ability to choose the option that best suits their bling, time, & risk equation is plain moronic. IMO, of course.
05-25-2013, 07:52 PM
#72
I can't say I know AP well—in fact our first real conversations occurred only more recently, in Geneva—but I've certainly known him in passing (and his work rather intimately!) for a very long time now. Really enjoyed my interactions with him in Geneva, though, and, again, value a passionate, plain-speaking spokesman.
To answer your last question, there's something on the books. I'm afraid that's all I can say at this point, though.
Best,
pete
To answer your last question, there's something on the books.
I'm afraid that's all I can say at this point, though. Best,
pete
05-25-2013, 08:11 PM
#73
As for Mr Preuninger, I think he's a true believer in the 911 and he's doing very good things. He's had some real stinkers, and made some uncultivated remarks which were perhaps just poorly worded attempts to call for the naysayers to give him a little credit and wait until the car is in the market. It would be naive to lay blame at his feet for the final product -- no one person at a billion dollar company has that authority short of Steve Jobs in his day . As for his less cultured remarks, if the burden of being in a customer facing marketing role has all taken its toll, that's no excuse. From the comfort of the peanut gallery, I would humbly offer the advice to let the product speak for itself when the time comes. Get this new GT3 in a race variant into competition. Win a few.
05-25-2013, 09:27 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
well, from business perspective if company wants to make money they should accommodate wives of CEOs to be able to drive those cars.
to make enthusiasts happy they should take a real cup car, put 'GT3' badge on it and sell it to us in a street legal form.
obviously real solution is somewhat in between. 997 generation seemed to be closer to cup thing, new 991 seems to be closer to 'wives' thing - so we get 20" rims, do not see yet proper bucket seats, etc. I am sure all it will eventually work itself out. Or aftermarket supplier will fill the void.
to make enthusiasts happy they should take a real cup car, put 'GT3' badge on it and sell it to us in a street legal form.
obviously real solution is somewhat in between. 997 generation seemed to be closer to cup thing, new 991 seems to be closer to 'wives' thing - so we get 20" rims, do not see yet proper bucket seats, etc. I am sure all it will eventually work itself out. Or aftermarket supplier will fill the void.
05-25-2013, 09:31 PM
#75
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With all due respect Pete, I think the naysayers would be more willing to give Preuninger latitude if they weren't dealing with issues like this: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...isclosure.html Rule number one: stand behind the products you sell.
Perhaps you'd feel differently had you almost stuffed your own car into armco because some late model GT3 blew a coolant fitting in front of you, twice. Been there, done that.
As for singling him out, it comes with the territory when you put yourself out as figurehead of the model. Further, i don't think he does himself any favors by being dismissive or sarcastic regarding the issues plaguing current owners, especially when their safety is at issue.
Perhaps you'd feel differently had you almost stuffed your own car into armco because some late model GT3 blew a coolant fitting in front of you, twice. Been there, done that.
As for singling him out, it comes with the territory when you put yourself out as figurehead of the model. Further, i don't think he does himself any favors by being dismissive or sarcastic regarding the issues plaguing current owners, especially when their safety is at issue.