Excellent Panorama Interview "On Three"
05-19-2013, 12:56 AM
#46
Burning Brakes
Physics is physics. Nobody and no thing escapes that. Things break with repeated use. No argument there.
Street centerlocks were hyped gimmick(read: no real benefit) that didn't work. If it's as simple as your explanation, then the engineers at Porsche had to know all this long ago. If they need a 4200 mi timeout, fine. They should've told buyers up front.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that Porsche dissed their most passionate enthusiasts, the GT3 track rats, by consciously choosing to just dump this in our lap. You shouldn't do things like that to your faithful. That is my point!
Street centerlocks were hyped gimmick(read: no real benefit) that didn't work. If it's as simple as your explanation, then the engineers at Porsche had to know all this long ago. If they need a 4200 mi timeout, fine. They should've told buyers up front.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that Porsche dissed their most passionate enthusiasts, the GT3 track rats, by consciously choosing to just dump this in our lap. You shouldn't do things like that to your faithful. That is my point!
The biggest, and by far the most expensive, crash I have had in 20 years of Auto racing requiring a new body on my GT2 was caused by a broken CL axle and the loss of my LR wheel at 130 MPH around the last Turn coming onto the straight at Road Atlanta. I note that the Porsche conversion kit from 5 Lug to CL on earlier GT3s is over $10,000. Love to see my 991 GT3 price reduced by half of that for 5 Lug. No chance of that happening judging from their website.
05-19-2013, 02:43 AM
#47
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
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^ bravooo....
i converted CL to 5 lugs. $3000 inc labor, all oem parts.
then buy a bunch of wheels. you are set.
i converted CL to 5 lugs. $3000 inc labor, all oem parts.
then buy a bunch of wheels. you are set.
05-19-2013, 02:46 AM
#48
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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hum...... i will need that surgery in near future.
both rotator cuff messed up.
knees and ankles too....
too much mt bike racing and eating dirt.
both rotator cuff messed up.
knees and ankles too....
too much mt bike racing and eating dirt.
05-19-2013, 06:39 AM
#49
Burning Brakes
05-21-2013, 01:36 PM
#51
Physics is physics. Nobody and no thing escapes that. Things break with repeated use. No argument there.
Street centerlocks were hyped gimmick(read: no real benefit) that didn't work. If it's as simple as your explanation, then the engineers at Porsche had to know all this long ago. If they need a 4200 mi timeout, fine. They should've told buyers up front.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that Porsche dissed their most passionate enthusiasts, the GT3 track rats, by consciously choosing to just dump this in our lap. You shouldn't do things like that to your faithful. That is my point!
Street centerlocks were hyped gimmick(read: no real benefit) that didn't work. If it's as simple as your explanation, then the engineers at Porsche had to know all this long ago. If they need a 4200 mi timeout, fine. They should've told buyers up front.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that Porsche dissed their most passionate enthusiasts, the GT3 track rats, by consciously choosing to just dump this in our lap. You shouldn't do things like that to your faithful. That is my point!
The secondary factor is the thread pitch and friction (which I believe is factored by the depth of the thread and diameter of the male/female working surfaces.
As little more than a wild guess, I'd say the lug threads create more friction for the same pitch (less working surface area because of a smaller depth of nut and smaller diameter.
So long as the system does not allow relative movement between the wheel and the axle hub, the mating surface does not wear and the assembly does not fatigue. Within reason.
I think it's not fatigue that leads to a limited service life of things like these centerlocks, it's the unknown. Porsche doesn't know the wear and tear for each car, it doesn't know the correct and consistent use of each part and it simply doesn't know what happens when some parts exceed an approximate number of hours in use because the conditions during those hours are entirely random and variable beyond any prediction or simulation or model. Thus, some parts become open-ended liability concerns.
I wouldn't draw comparisons between road car parts and race car parts, especially when it comes to things in the power train, especially axles and bearings, wheels and brakes.
In round figures, I see the comparison like this:
wheel hub to axle hub mating area: same
radius of clamping force: advantage to the lug design
friction at specified torque: advantage centerlock
effective clamping force: advantage centerlock
If Porsche has resolved the evident design flaw(s) of the 997.2 centerlocks, which lead to accelerated wear and failure, then the 991 centerlocks should be great. If the 991's still require the rigamarole of jacking up the car, torquing, releasing, torquing, and greasing and throwing a pinch of salt over your shoulder, I'd take the five-slugs as a no-cost or even deduction option. If they've got the new centerlock to the point it's a "real" centerlock (bang it on and off with a rattle gun, crush the torque and drive away) then they've got it right. But I imagine they've stuck with some decorator wheel nut that demands a delicate touch.
05-21-2013, 07:00 PM
#52
You're clearly still delirious from the anesthesia ... you just wrote you're listening to Kenny Loggins and you feel no pain ... oh how we'll look back on that post and laugh!...I can only wish you a speedy recovery and I trust whatever shoulder is incapacitated, I hope you can "use the other hand" ... I mean, for gearshifts.
Just kidding. Thank you for your posts. Rennlist should be sending you commission checks. Much appreciated.
Just kidding. Thank you for your posts. Rennlist should be sending you commission checks. Much appreciated.
Suludos Guey? Thanks (I think!). They fixed my shoulder...the problem is the way I think! That has no cure!
If Porsche has resolved the evident design flaw(s) of the 997.2 centerlocks, which lead to accelerated wear and failure, then the 991 centerlocks should be great. If the 991's still require the rigamarole of jacking up the car, torquing, releasing, torquing, and greasing and throwing a pinch of salt over your shoulder, I'd take the five-slugs as a no-cost or even deduction option. If they've got the new centerlock to the point it's a "real" centerlock (bang it on and off with a rattle gun, crush the torque and drive away) then they've got it right. But I imagine they've stuck with some decorator wheel nut that demands a delicate touch.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Colorado
05-22-2013, 05:42 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
If Porsche has resolved the evident design flaw(s) of the 997.2 centerlocks, which lead to accelerated wear and failure, then the 991 centerlocks should be great. If the 991's still require the rigamarole of jacking up the car, torquing, releasing, torquing, and greasing and throwing a pinch of salt over your shoulder, I'd take the five-slugs as a no-cost or even deduction option. If they've got the new centerlock to the point it's a "real" centerlock (bang it on and off with a rattle gun, crush the torque and drive away) then they've got it right. But I imagine they've stuck with some decorator wheel nut that demands a delicate touch.
same thing with that interview - when he keeps asking questions about track, etc, and a response is same - dude, it is a street car and we designed it for street. what is not clear about it? it is a street car capable of doing several fun track laps. isn`t it literally what he said in there? end of story.
05-22-2013, 07:06 PM
#54
there are no flaws in current CL design. they were simply not designed for what most people do with them. it is what it is - any design has its goals. proper wheel mounting procedure for CL wheels never anticipated crazy people with 3 set of wheels that they jerk around 3 times a day. it was supposed to be a nice procedure performed at the dealer when a potential customer comes back there in 2-3 years to buy new set of tires. a procedure intentionally created in such way so most people will HAVE to come to dealer and not to mess up with 6ft long 300lb/ft torque wrenches.
same thing with that interview - when he keeps asking questions about track, etc, and a response is same - dude, it is a street car and we designed it for street. what is not clear about it? it is a street car capable of doing several fun track laps. isn`t it literally what he said in there? end of story.
same thing with that interview - when he keeps asking questions about track, etc, and a response is same - dude, it is a street car and we designed it for street. what is not clear about it? it is a street car capable of doing several fun track laps. isn`t it literally what he said in there? end of story.
Eduardo,
CO
05-24-2013, 02:07 AM
#56
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Preuninger might have been tongue in cheek with his comments, but I fear behind that sarcasm is sincere disdain and contempt for customers.
Ironically, he's also admitting that the 997 centerlocks are a failed design.
Porsche should provide a free retrofit update to the 991 centerlocks.
Cheap for them. Far, far cheaper than one of those cars ever losing a hub and injuring a wealthy person. Imagine the "evisceration by twitter" if a GT3 loses a centerlock while driving a Porsche Club autocross and plows into a crowd.
Ironically, he's also admitting that the 997 centerlocks are a failed design.
Porsche should provide a free retrofit update to the 991 centerlocks.
Cheap for them. Far, far cheaper than one of those cars ever losing a hub and injuring a wealthy person. Imagine the "evisceration by twitter" if a GT3 loses a centerlock while driving a Porsche Club autocross and plows into a crowd.
05-24-2013, 03:31 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
Okay, I have to pipe up here...
While it is not (!) my job to defend AP or PAG—I'm just supposed to ask questions, and do my best to bring you good information—it is my job to be fair and balanced. To that end, I have to say I'm discouraged by some interpretations I see posted here and elsewhere. And not just re: my interview with AP
While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years. I guess that's the passion that I have enjoyed for many years showing through.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. Maybe a bit tired of having to be the one who must answer to the purists. That last point is my interpretation, and I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM, from 997.1 GT3 (which I hated!) to 997.2 Carrera GTS non-sport suspension and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 (which were insanely brilliant). Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
I've been disappointed to see some of the failures we've seen of late (cam parts, hoses, etc.). I'd prefer to see five-lug hubs on the GT3, and there are those within Porsche who do, too. And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
John (911Slow) is right: There are people within PAG who watch this board with interest. Partly because something very cool happens here (which is why I haunt these parts more than most), partly because they're enthusiasts themselves, and partly because they enthusiastically build these cars for you.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast. There are others at PAG, but few are out in the open or as forthright and honest. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Harris.
Just my two cents, offered very (!) respectfully. Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
pete
While it is not (!) my job to defend AP or PAG—I'm just supposed to ask questions, and do my best to bring you good information—it is my job to be fair and balanced. To that end, I have to say I'm discouraged by some interpretations I see posted here and elsewhere. And not just re: my interview with AP
While I have my own feelings about PDK-only and centerlocks (I don't like either decision), to call someone names or question their integrity doesn't seem like the spirit of Rennlist I've enjoyed over so many years. I guess that's the passion that I have enjoyed for many years showing through.
During the interview, AP didn't come off as arrogant so much as passionate. Maybe a bit tired of having to be the one who must answer to the purists. That last point is my interpretation, and I would add this to it: Have you ever felt strongly about something, only to see it evolve enough to change your mind? I have: PASM, from 997.1 GT3 (which I hated!) to 997.2 Carrera GTS non-sport suspension and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 (which were insanely brilliant). Things move on, and while I am a staunch believer in manual transmissions, I am curious to try this version of PDK. Maybe it will succeed in converting me where two years with a Cayman S PDK failed, and every PDK test car so far has failed.
I've been disappointed to see some of the failures we've seen of late (cam parts, hoses, etc.). I'd prefer to see five-lug hubs on the GT3, and there are those within Porsche who do, too. And I guess that's my main point: Porsche is a huge company, with decisions made at all levels. And folks you criticize are employees. It's good and even healthy for there to be a discourse—but I think it's a bad deal when any individual at Porsche is singled out and judged by others.
John (911Slow) is right: There are people within PAG who watch this board with interest. Partly because something very cool happens here (which is why I haunt these parts more than most), partly because they're enthusiasts themselves, and partly because they enthusiastically build these cars for you.
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast. There are others at PAG, but few are out in the open or as forthright and honest. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Harris.
Just my two cents, offered very (!) respectfully. Now, back to being sulking about the apparent demise of the manual transmission from my couch. Note the word apparent. I just don't want to believe it's real...
pete
05-24-2013, 06:00 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Haven't seen many cars marketed for even occasional track use that have their tyres last 3 years... F me! I doubt the OEM tyres could go that long even if it was kept to the speed limit on the street for that period of time... Seriously! unless we're talking 1000 miles per year which doesn't even justify ownership of these vehicles...
if they don't want them tracked, EASY!!! Show us marketing material of them boulevard cruising and driving along a country road to a favourite picnic spot, not lapping a track against the clock and power sliding through corners in the hands of pro racing car drivers...
05-24-2013, 08:25 AM
#59
Whatever your take on Porsche's decisions of late, AP is a real-deal enthusiast
05-24-2013, 08:35 AM
#60
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I'm willing to give the PDK a chance, RWS makes some sense, and hopefully the new centerlocks will be fine, but the unavailability of proper track seats at this time is an unforgivable major fail and wasn't addressed in the article.
