The first I hate that the new GT3 doesnt have a clutch thread
03-06-2013, 12:37 AM
#92
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MEM82, yep. I've had 3 E36's. Still have the LTW I bought from Seth Thomas. Have a badass 965 too. Beautiful but antiquated.
Love the feel of the bimmer at the limit. I think it's the one car that combines analogue feel + reasonable speed + predictability w/o all the gizmos. Loved tearing up all the porkers at the DE finale back in the day. LOL.
Love the feel of the bimmer at the limit. I think it's the one car that combines analogue feel + reasonable speed + predictability w/o all the gizmos. Loved tearing up all the porkers at the DE finale back in the day. LOL.
03-06-2013, 06:32 AM
#93
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Actually, I don't understand this, either - though likely for different reasons.
I understand why many of us are disappointed. What I don't understand is why others are so excited by the 991 'GT3'.
Is the whole point of this new 'GT3' to allow owners to be beaten by their same "DE competitors" by an incrementally slimmer margin? Is that really what its fans are looking for?
If it is time to drop the manual transmission, move on and "get with the times", why is this new 'GT3' not a mid-engine car. Given the same development time and dollars, it would be faster. Why wouldn't the same rationale that is being applied to the transmission apply to the chassis configuration? I find that dichotomy particularly odd.
I think Porsche is trying to cash in on the GT3 name while they can. Soon enough, they'll have the mid-engine 960 (or whatever it ends up being called). It's going to cost twice as much (or more) as a GT3 and it will become Porsche's endurance racer - allowing them to compete on equal footing with their competition. If that's the future, the most important near-term thing for Porsche is how much money can they wring out of the GT3 moniker.
Personally, I'm not wedded to Porsche, and certainly not to the rear-engine configuration. But Porsche has made driver's cars. I won't buy a Ferrari without a manual, and I've told them as much.
As for the GTR, as much as I hate it for what it has done to ruin cars, the Nissan Skyline did not start off as a computerized WHALE, either.
I understand why many of us are disappointed. What I don't understand is why others are so excited by the 991 'GT3'.
Is the whole point of this new 'GT3' to allow owners to be beaten by their same "DE competitors" by an incrementally slimmer margin? Is that really what its fans are looking for?
If it is time to drop the manual transmission, move on and "get with the times", why is this new 'GT3' not a mid-engine car. Given the same development time and dollars, it would be faster. Why wouldn't the same rationale that is being applied to the transmission apply to the chassis configuration? I find that dichotomy particularly odd.
I think Porsche is trying to cash in on the GT3 name while they can. Soon enough, they'll have the mid-engine 960 (or whatever it ends up being called). It's going to cost twice as much (or more) as a GT3 and it will become Porsche's endurance racer - allowing them to compete on equal footing with their competition. If that's the future, the most important near-term thing for Porsche is how much money can they wring out of the GT3 moniker.
Personally, I'm not wedded to Porsche, and certainly not to the rear-engine configuration. But Porsche has made driver's cars. I won't buy a Ferrari without a manual, and I've told them as much.
As for the GTR, as much as I hate it for what it has done to ruin cars, the Nissan Skyline did not start off as a computerized WHALE, either.
Porsche will have an answer for that market segment. The 911, in any form, is not it.
The GT3 used to be the anti-electronics, back to basics race car for the street that did not suffer fools, and was therefore unique in the marketplace and appealed to a very limited audience. The Turbo has historically been the technology leader with amazing magazine stats at a similar price point.
Having PDK, PTV, and RWS optional on the GT3 would have satisfied just about everybody, but Porsche wants another magazine-stat car rather than something remotely close to the factory race car.
Hey, maybe the 991 GT3RS will be AWD! Won't that be great!
The GT3 used to be the anti-electronics, back to basics race car for the street that did not suffer fools, and was therefore unique in the marketplace and appealed to a very limited audience. The Turbo has historically been the technology leader with amazing magazine stats at a similar price point.
Having PDK, PTV, and RWS optional on the GT3 would have satisfied just about everybody, but Porsche wants another magazine-stat car rather than something remotely close to the factory race car.
Hey, maybe the 991 GT3RS will be AWD! Won't that be great!
Yes and then they will use the difference in sales to say that no one buys the manual even for a gt3 furthering their cause. Its a load of crap.
03-06-2013, 07:06 AM
#94
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GT3s are suppose to be battle hardened machines! The new 991 will have to prove its worth in time...
Spent the day at a high speed track today with race cars and the like, temperature 35oC... The Ferrari F458 spent most of the day parked in the pits with the GTR... Both are faster on a spec sheet then the GT3 yet both were lucky if they did 10 laps for the day...Maybe it was the car, maybe the kind of guy who buys the car... Mine chewed 3 tanks of gas and slapped out almost 450km on track... Thats what makes a GT3 special in my eyes... The never say die attitude!
The GT3 was never the car that other marques were compared to in terms of speed, that task was left to the turbo so give it the gizmos... The GT3 was always the driver's car and was the benchmark for handling, lets hope the new one continues the tradition!
Spent the day at a high speed track today with race cars and the like, temperature 35oC... The Ferrari F458 spent most of the day parked in the pits with the GTR... Both are faster on a spec sheet then the GT3 yet both were lucky if they did 10 laps for the day...Maybe it was the car, maybe the kind of guy who buys the car... Mine chewed 3 tanks of gas and slapped out almost 450km on track... Thats what makes a GT3 special in my eyes... The never say die attitude!
The GT3 was never the car that other marques were compared to in terms of speed, that task was left to the turbo so give it the gizmos... The GT3 was always the driver's car and was the benchmark for handling, lets hope the new one continues the tradition!
03-06-2013, 08:30 AM
#95
Can someone explain why the gt3 is heavier thanthe c2s? Doesn't make sense of the engines are the same with lighter internals on the 3 and no bs k seats in the 3. The only diff is the wide body???
03-06-2013, 09:24 AM
#97
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it finally has the right transmision!!! other than the fact that you send torque spykes to the rear wheels with manual gearbox and declutching what else do you get? slower driving on corners, no left foot braking on apex... and so on ... the so called 'enthusiasts' brougth porsche severela times close to bancrupcy...te old gt3 and the rs are set up like drift cars from factory , if this is what involment is than buy a gt86 and save some money.. if you really want to drive fast get this car, and this is not the rs version yet!!! the real guys than track their cars propperly finally recieved a car with coresponding brakes, and transmision, not to mention the extra bump in power and powerband
03-06-2013, 11:53 AM
#98
QMB-->MLB-->MSB
There have been too many negative threads and comments to requote and I'm sure they will only grow over time. However, I have not seen any comments on what is driving these changes in the 991 & GT(X) models. AP & co. is not looking to **** off it's hard core customers, they're simply complying with mother VW's marching orders IMO. Outliers always regress to the mean or die off and the adoption of MSB ensures the survival of the GT3 in a global economy, it is pure economics and good business. I have never lost sleep about a street car "going soft" for track duty because that is what dedicated track cars are for.
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03-06-2013, 12:17 PM
#99
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For somebody who wants a new 911 with warranty and a manual transmission will be disappointed that they cannot get it in a GT3 and will have to settle for a Carrera S.
Personally i think it is great to see the new GT3 in PDK only as it makes it a great daily driver and faster track day car.
My thoughts are that if somebody desires a manual transmission 911 then ideal lap times are not a concern therefore a Carrera purchase would suffice.
I also feel that if one desires a manual GT3, then look no further then the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3. These models have a special place in the Porsche family tree are are great for those who desire a weekend manual GT3 experience. Only trouble is that they are now considered "used" examples thus being first owner is no longer possible.
Personally i think it is great to see the new GT3 in PDK only as it makes it a great daily driver and faster track day car.
My thoughts are that if somebody desires a manual transmission 911 then ideal lap times are not a concern therefore a Carrera purchase would suffice.
I also feel that if one desires a manual GT3, then look no further then the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3. These models have a special place in the Porsche family tree are are great for those who desire a weekend manual GT3 experience. Only trouble is that they are now considered "used" examples thus being first owner is no longer possible.
03-06-2013, 12:34 PM
#100
Race Director
I didnt read this the entire thread but I recall the same lamenting when the BMW M5 came out w/ SMG only. Later it was offered w/ a stick (not very good) in the US. Perhaps its will happen here?
03-06-2013, 04:45 PM
#101
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Did anyone happen to get their R&T last night? I did, and one of the cover stories was a C2S PDK vs. an Evora S IPS. The Porsche was faster in every single measurable category, more precise, more controlled, etc etc. But guess who won? The Evora because it felt more connected to the driver and to the road. They said the 991 felt numb with its electric steering - the same system it shares with the GT3. Same PDK too. I know it's not the GT3, but it shares a lot of the same DNA.
03-06-2013, 04:54 PM
#102
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Did anyone happen to get their R&T last night? I did, and one of the cover stories was a C2S PDK vs. an Evora S IPS. The Porsche was faster in every single measurable category, more precise, more controlled, etc etc. But guess who won? The Evora because it felt more connected to the driver and to the road. They said the 991 felt numb with its electric steering - the same system it shares with the GT3. Same PDK too. I know it's not the GT3, but it shares a lot of the same DNA.
03-06-2013, 05:16 PM
#103
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For somebody who wants a new 911 with warranty and a manual transmission will be disappointed that they cannot get it in a GT3 and will have to settle for a Carrera S.
Personally i think it is great to see the new GT3 in PDK only as it makes it a great daily driver and faster track day car.
My thoughts are that if somebody desires a manual transmission 911 then ideal lap times are not a concern therefore a Carrera purchase would suffice.
I also feel that if one desires a manual GT3, then look no further then the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3. These models have a special place in the Porsche family tree are are great for those who desire a weekend manual GT3 experience. Only trouble is that they are now considered "used" examples thus being first owner is no longer possible.
Personally i think it is great to see the new GT3 in PDK only as it makes it a great daily driver and faster track day car.
My thoughts are that if somebody desires a manual transmission 911 then ideal lap times are not a concern therefore a Carrera purchase would suffice.
I also feel that if one desires a manual GT3, then look no further then the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3. These models have a special place in the Porsche family tree are are great for those who desire a weekend manual GT3 experience. Only trouble is that they are now considered "used" examples thus being first owner is no longer possible.
I find that most of the people posting about faster this and faster that have no videos (or hardly any) of them driving, no lap records, no national championships, not even any DE cup records and won't be trying for any. The guys (fast or not) that are really passionate about driving mostly still prefer manuals.
There are people that talk about fast times, and look for the car to do it for them, and they usually start blaming the car when they are slow. And then there are people who drive fast times, and for them the excitement is not just going faster, it's driving better than the guy next to them so adding handicaps for lack of driver skill is not what they want. Ask Sean Edwards.
These people are MORE passionate about driving, not less, and are not going to settle for a CS. In fact most of them will still be lapping ahead of the PDK crowd.
If we wanted the easiest way to quick laptimes, we wouldn't be rear engine loving fanboys would we. Most people would have never ventured into 996 and 997 GT3's prior too for sure. We would all drive I-GTR's.
03-06-2013, 06:27 PM
#104
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There are people that talk about fast times, and look for the car to do it for them, and they usually start blaming the car when they are slow. And then there are people who drive fast times, and for them the excitement is not just going faster, it's driving better than the guy next to them so adding handicaps for lack of driver skill is not what they want. Ask Sean Edwards.
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03-06-2013, 11:22 PM
#105
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That's nonsense and you know it.
I find that most of the people posting about faster this and faster that have no videos (or hardly any) of them driving, no lap records, no national championships, not even any DE cup records and won't be trying for any. The guys (fast or not) that are really passionate about driving mostly still prefer manuals.
There are people that talk about fast times, and look for the car to do it for them, and they usually start blaming the car when they are slow. And then there are people who drive fast times, and for them the excitement is not just going faster, it's driving better than the guy next to them so adding handicaps for lack of driver skill is not what they want. Ask Sean Edwards.
These people are MORE passionate about driving, not less, and are not going to settle for a CS. In fact most of them will still be lapping ahead of the PDK crowd.
If we wanted the easiest way to quick laptimes, we wouldn't be rear engine loving fanboys would we. Most people would have never ventured into 996 and 997 GT3's prior too for sure. We would all drive I-GTR's.
I find that most of the people posting about faster this and faster that have no videos (or hardly any) of them driving, no lap records, no national championships, not even any DE cup records and won't be trying for any. The guys (fast or not) that are really passionate about driving mostly still prefer manuals.
There are people that talk about fast times, and look for the car to do it for them, and they usually start blaming the car when they are slow. And then there are people who drive fast times, and for them the excitement is not just going faster, it's driving better than the guy next to them so adding handicaps for lack of driver skill is not what they want. Ask Sean Edwards.
These people are MORE passionate about driving, not less, and are not going to settle for a CS. In fact most of them will still be lapping ahead of the PDK crowd.
If we wanted the easiest way to quick laptimes, we wouldn't be rear engine loving fanboys would we. Most people would have never ventured into 996 and 997 GT3's prior too for sure. We would all drive I-GTR's.
I enjoy my manual gearbox but i must admit that for track time i have grown tired of the heal/toe with crappy stock pedals. Acceleration and braking are what i find important. Shifting is just a distraction.
With all the high horse power cars out there it is nice to have anything that will help keep a level playing field. PDK is it.
You are right in saying that passoniate drivers love a manual. I can only imagine that a PDK car on the street for weekend blasts will be no more exciting then a drive in a S class benz.
PDK etc is no doubt the future for performance vehicles but as i mentioned before that is why we have older 911s to fill those voids. I will always have a manual 911 in the garage, just not a new one i suppose.