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Just asking the question to get you gents' input/replies...as a guy who has some Expert scooter Road Race experience, I know trail braking is essential but having never tracked a car and knowing due to some medical issues my left foot/leg is not quite as perfectly motorized as I would like I expect to have some challenges with trail braking when I HPDE/or track the Grim Reaper. I guess my specific question is how necessary/beneficial is trail braking under throttle, which would require the left foot? Comments and thoughts would be welcome.
Just asking the question to get you gents' input/replies...as a guy who has some Expert scooter Road Race experience, I know trail braking is essential but having never tracked a car and knowing due to some medical issues my left foot/leg is not quite as perfectly motorized as I would like I expect to have some challenges with trail braking when I HPDE/or track the Grim Reaper. Comments and thoughts would be welcome.
Trail braking does not require anything of the left foot. Basically means braking into the entry of the corner (deeper than usual) and getting the front wheels to bite and possibly rotating the car into a gentle drift and then smoothly releasing the brake and transitioning to the throttle for a fast exit speed.
Trail braking does not require anything of the left foot. Basically means braking into the entry of the corner (deeper than usual) and getting the front wheels to bite and possibly rotating the car into a gentle drift and then smoothly releasing the brake and transitioning to the throttle for a fast exit speed.
Can be done with or without left foot braking.
Interesting...on scooters you can manipulate your line and and angle of attack along with weight transfer with application of throttle and front and rear braking throughout the cornering process. I assumed trail braking in cars would require the left foot in PDK cars in a similar manner. Looks like I will be entering a new world, should be fun. Thanks for your reply, greatly appreciated.
Think of a string attached from the side of your steering wheel (neutral position) to your pedals as they are depressed fully (either). In this position the string is taut and you can apply maximum power or braking because your wheels are pointed straight, but as you move the wheel it necessitates a lessening of the throttle or brake pressure since you are limited by grip and the string pulls your pedals up.
Interesting...on scooters you can manipulate your line and and angle of attack along with weight transfer with application of throttle and front and rear braking throughout the cornering process. I assumed trail braking in cars would require the left foot in PDK cars in a similar manner. Looks like I will be entering a new world, should be fun. Thanks for your reply, greatly appreciated.
I assume you’re talking motos, but when trail braking a moto into a corner you are off throttle as well, so it’s apparently the same as in a car.
Interesting...on scooters you can manipulate your line and and angle of attack along with weight transfer with application of throttle and front and rear braking throughout the cornering process. I assumed trail braking in cars would require the left foot in PDK cars in a similar manner. Looks like I will be entering a new world, should be fun. Thanks for your reply, greatly appreciated.
Think or look up heel & toe. Look at driving shoes for a clue on how the foot works both pedals.
Actually, it is the outer ball of the foot that modulates the throttle while the inner ball is on the brake pedal. It takes a lot of practice to make it smooth, which is the same point point on a bike (controlling the balance of the car to get it to do what you want instead of upsetting the balance). You can practice on the street at legal speeds to help develop the rhythm and muscle memory. On the track everything just happens faster.
Think or look up heel & toe. Look at driving shoes for a clue on how the foot works both pedals.
Actually, it is the outer ball of the foot that modulates the throttle while the inner ball is on the brake pedal. It takes a lot of practice to make it smooth, which is the same point point on a bike (controlling the balance of the car to get it to do what you want instead of upsetting the balance). You can practice on the street at legal speeds to help develop the rhythm and muscle memory. On the track everything just happens faster.
I believe the best way to understand trail braking, and more importantly, how the brake pedal is actually a great tool to make you go faster and can even be thought of as a device for speed.. is to drive or take classes in an formula car. An f4 school for example will show you how extreme smoothness in modulating a brake pedal will turn into faster cornering and the best exit speed. The reason is that a formula car doesn't mask your rapid weight transfers which result from messy brake release like a normal track car will... if you have poor brake release, you will spin a formula car. So what you learn very fast is that at a certain level everyone Is pretty good getting on the gas early and pretty brave staying on it longer. The differentiator in beating someone into a corner is who can release the brakes in the smoothest and therefore latest fashion, which helps weight the car allowing it to turn harder into corners carrying more speed and then faster out of them. The feeling of trail braking a formula car for me is greater than any in all of driving.... the brake pedal becomes your accelerator as you can pass way more cars under braking than you could under acceleration. Get a lot of your hard braking done in a straight line, but then use that last 30% or so to smooothly release as you're in your turn... and watch everyone else disappear into your Rearview mirrors.. then apex, your car is now able to be turned more into the direction of the exit so you have less steering lock on and can get on the gas much earlier. In 2-3 turns you've dropped the guys who are still getting all their braking done in a straight line. probably the most fun part of Motorsport for me..
String theory still applies by the way.. that's a constant which can never be ignored.
even more fun on a track with a motorcycle by the way... then cojones really come into play as you have to start feeling for front tire slip.
I believe the best way to understand trail braking, and more importantly, how the brake pedal is actually a great tool to make you go faster and can even be thought of as a device for speed.. is to drive or take classes in an formula car. An f4 school for example will show you how extreme smoothness in modulating a brake pedal will turn into faster cornering and the best exit speed. The reason is that a formula car doesn't mask your rapid weight transfers which result from messy brake release like a normal track car will... if you have poor brake release, you will spin a formula car. So what you learn very fast is that at a certain level everyone Is pretty good getting on the gas early and pretty brave staying on it longer. The differentiator in beating someone into a corner is who can release the brakes in the smoothest and therefore latest fashion, which helps weight the car allowing it to turn harder into corners carrying more speed and then faster out of them. The feeling of trail braking a formula car for me is greater than any in all of driving.... the brake pedal becomes your accelerator as you can pass way more cars under braking than you could under acceleration. Get a lot of your hard braking done in a straight line, but then use that last 30% or so to smooothly release as you're in your turn... and watch everyone else disappear into your Rearview mirrors.. then apex, your car is now able to be turned more into the direction of the exit so you have less steering lock on and can get on the gas much earlier. In 2-3 turns you've dropped the guys who are still getting all their braking done in a straight line. probably the most fun part of Motorsport for me..
String theory still applies by the way.. that's a constant which can never be ignored.
even more fun on a track with a motorcycle by the way... then cojones really come into play as you have to start feeling for front tire slip.
That description of trail braking/"braking to go faster" is very well said. Thanks for your reply and yeah I get the string analogy...that is basic trail braking 101. The main point of my question was re: the requirement to left foot trail brake in a PDK GT car.
That description of trail braking/"braking to go faster" is very well said. Thanks for your reply and yeah I get the string analogy...that is basic trail braking 101. The main point of my question was re: the requirement to left foot trail brake in a PDK GT car.
no need to left foot brake to trail brake, especially if just doing track day and not racing looking for every last tenth.
I see you are in florida as am I. Let me know when you’re ready to do a Sebring track day and I’ll be happy to show you there ...T17 is perfect for trail braking as seen here
I assume you’re talking motos, but when trail braking a moto into a corner you are off throttle as well, so it’s apparently the same as in a car.
No I was talking Road Race scooters...it gets pretty complicated and probably not technically trail braking just a continuum of using the brakes through the entire cornering process, but you can also use the brakes under acceleration out of the apex; the front brake to add some grip to keep your line (whereas on front braking off throttle it causes your scooter to turn in) and the rear brake to control tire loss of traction and then the front brake again when the front tire raises to stop the rotational momentum and set the front end down a bit quicker.
no need to left foot brake to trail brake, especially if just doing track day and not racing looking for every last tenth.
I see you are in florida as am I. Let me know when you’re ready to do a Sebring track day and I’ll be happy to show you there ...T17 is perfect for trail braking as seen here
Thanks dude...and awesome picture. I am hoping to do the Suncoast PCA DE at Sebring on Oct 10th and 11th. I will be the guy wandering around not knowing where to go, haha. Actually that is where I got my sponsored TZ-250/350 (D) ride back in my teen days. Island Yamaha (Merritt Island, Fl.) had a few sponsored motocross riders and they took 3 of us down to sebring to turn some laps on their new TZ-250/350. I had an AMA 125cc Motocross Expert license at the time but had never even ridden a street bike in anger but I ended up putting down the fastest lap times (as I recall we all got like 3 or 5 laps, not much) and I got the ride. It was my Sr year in H.S. and I ran a partial AMA road race season. Ran at Daytona in '75 where I earned my 250/350cc Road Race AMA Expert license. But that was a LONG time ago and I have never had a car on a road track, especially not a beast like my GT so I definitely consider myself a raw novice in need of a crawl, then walk, then run plan. I am new to the Porsche scene but there is a PCA driving instructor (Carmen, don't have the last name down yet) in my Space Coast PCA club that has talked to me and he said he was okay if I requested him at my first DE, He also owns a 991.2 GT3 RS like yourself, so a pretty good match. But I will take all the help I can get. Again thanks for your reply and I look forward to meeting you at some point. My name is Steve.
Thanks dude...and awesome picture. I am hoping to do the Suncoast PCA DE at Sebring on Oct 10th and 11th. I will be the guy wandering around not knowing where to go, haha. Actually that is where I got my sponsored TZ-250/350 (D) ride back in my teen days. Island Yamaha (Merritt Island, Fl.) had a few sponsored motocross riders and they took 3 of us down to sebring to turn some laps on their new TZ-250/350. I had an AMA 125cc Motocross Expert license at the time but had never even ridden a street bike in anger but I ended up putting down the fastest lap times (as I recall we all got like 3 or 5 laps, not much) and I got the ride. It was my Sr year in H.S. and I ran a partial AMA road race season. Ran at Daytona in '75 where I earned my 250/350cc Road Race AMA Expert license. But that was a LONG time ago and I have never had a car on a road track, especially not a beast like my GT so I definitely consider myself a raw novice in need of a crawl, then walk, then run plan. I am new to the Porsche scene but there is a PCA driving instructor (Carmen, don't have the last name down yet) in my Space Coast PCA club that has talked to me and he said he was okay if I requested him at my first DE, He also owns a 991.2 GT3 RS like yourself, so a pretty good match. But I will take all the help I can get. Again thanks for your reply and I look forward to meeting you at some point. My name is Steve.
Carmen is an excellent instructor. His 991 GT3 RS is amazing. He's always at the autocross, too. You will really like him.
08-07-2020, 08:53 PM
Trail braking?
