Upgrade $8k DUNDON 93mm plenum throttle body and air filter box?
10-27-2020, 04:37 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
I am not sure you quite understand the manufacturing process. The setup time to a shop to manufacture one piece to 100 pieces is the same. I believe what Jamie is doing here is trying to boost his sales to sell more by offering a nice discount for his product to do so. The more pieces that go out the better the run, meaning lower cost into the setup of the run thus passing on some nice savings onto the customer... if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Jamie and Dundon have never pressured me to buy their products. They have the support and back every thing they sell. How often can you call other shops and get the owner on the phone to help you with your TB install? It all comes at a price. I have been at the track with Jamie on the weekend, and literally he is missing half the day working with customers. Great company, worth the price.
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10-27-2020, 04:57 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
I was fortunate to pick up a resale '19 .2RS WP that already had a Dundon intake, street headers and exhaust installed!! There is quite a bit of drone in 7th gear up to about 70 mph on the freeway, but that's not where this car lives 
. It's about what happens at high revs on the track...and it SCREAMS!
. It's about what happens at high revs on the track...and it SCREAMS!
10-27-2020, 09:14 PM
#48
I am not sure you quite understand the manufacturing process. The setup time to a shop to manufacture one piece to 100 pieces is the same. I believe what Jamie is doing here is trying to boost his sales to sell more by offering a nice discount for his product to do so. The more pieces that go out the better the run, meaning lower cost into the setup of the run thus passing on some nice savings onto the customer... if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Jamie and Dundon have never pressured me to buy their products. They have the support and back every thing they sell. How often can you call other shops and get the owner on the phone to help you with your TB install? It all comes at a price. I have been at the track with Jamie on the weekend, and literally he is missing half the day working with customers. Great company, worth the price.
I dealt with many US based aftermarket companies including MGW. You should google MGW shifters and you’ll be surprised with the quality (and by quality I mean at or above the numeric shifter which again costs 4 times MGW). I have installed MGW shifters in all my cars and I have seen numeric shifter first hand. I cannot sit here and defend the $1200 price tag of the numeric shifter given what I observed with MGW. As for customer support, they also have gone above and beyond mailing me spare parts, overnighting them, the owner George called me personally to address my questions.
My point is I know what high quality products are and I know good customer service. I also know what it means to produce things in house in good old USA. Its not cheap. Its not easy. And I appreciate that. But please lets not equate the brand tax with what these qualities actually cost in real life. Dont say these things to justify the cost. The cost of an item in capitalist economy is what the market pays for it, full stop. And thats a two way street. As much as a producer of the good is free to market their product accordingly, public is free to assess and provide their opinion of as such. Its a free country.
10-27-2020, 10:34 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
I do not dispute at all that they are some of the best out there, nor do I disagree about top notch R&D/made in USA/great customer support aspects of their firm. All I am saying is there is a substantial amount of "Porsche tax" baked in to their prices. When it comes building and marketing a product, there is a cost of what the company incurs (R&D, training staff, shipping, material, labor, etc) and then there is profit. It's a simple formula, A+B = C where C is what we pay, A is the cost to the firm and B is the profit. My point is "B" is such an abstract and loosely defined and not regulated figure that it varies significantly with respect to whom the product is being marketed for. I can take my iphone case for which the cost of A is $2 and sell it for $35 on a shopping mall stand. If the shopping mall happens to be in a neighborhood where average house price is $2M+, it will sell. If its 10% of that, it won't sell. No one questions the figure.
In other words, take the same intake (or other product) and try to market it for a Pagani customer base or some other 7 figure car, you can now suddenly charge $80,000 and the only reason you can do this is because you know your customer base will not mind paying for it.
And if the profit margin here wasn't as massive, they wouldn't be able to suddenly offer a $1000 off, the mere fact that you can do that and still make profit tells is exactly my point.
After all, no disrespect but many members here paid ADMs that are equivalent or more of the cost of a mid size SUV 90% of the country considers expensive - just the ADM alone, for the RS when the car was new because they have such high amount of disposable income that they dont mind (and hats off to them for being so successful - I do not say this at all in a negative tone). They of course have no problem spending $8,000 on an intake but point remains, there is a Porsche tax and a significant one.
Anyways, it was not my intention to cause an issue and now that I think about it and re-read the thread, my post probably came across wrong and perhaps I shouldnt have posted in the first place. Apologies
In other words, take the same intake (or other product) and try to market it for a Pagani customer base or some other 7 figure car, you can now suddenly charge $80,000 and the only reason you can do this is because you know your customer base will not mind paying for it.
And if the profit margin here wasn't as massive, they wouldn't be able to suddenly offer a $1000 off, the mere fact that you can do that and still make profit tells is exactly my point.
After all, no disrespect but many members here paid ADMs that are equivalent or more of the cost of a mid size SUV 90% of the country considers expensive - just the ADM alone, for the RS when the car was new because they have such high amount of disposable income that they dont mind (and hats off to them for being so successful - I do not say this at all in a negative tone). They of course have no problem spending $8,000 on an intake but point remains, there is a Porsche tax and a significant one.
Anyways, it was not my intention to cause an issue and now that I think about it and re-read the thread, my post probably came across wrong and perhaps I shouldnt have posted in the first place. Apologies
Last edited by tgibrit; 10-27-2020 at 10:38 PM.
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twospyders (08-12-2024)
10-27-2020, 11:06 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
The porsche tax is pretty drastic. I just did a 100mm ported TB for my C7 ZR1 and the cost was around $350.... And the difference with that TB was simply put unreal. It transformed the ZR1's throttle response to match and exceed of the RS - which I thought was the best pedal feel I have ever experienced, razor sharp throttle. But thats besides the point.
If you want to do intake, filter (larger), plenum, the cost is another $700 (all made in USA parts, all needed R&D, all being sold by companies who provide customer support around the clock, etc etc so all those arguments some will say dont matter).
So OK, ZR1 has 1 filter vs porsche's 2 and the plenum here is bigger, so double that cost. $1400. I dont understand why this is $8000, its pretty hefty. Maybe there is something here I dont understand/see. I am happy to pay more for something worth more, but there is a significant Porsche pricing here that far exceeds (and I mean %400 over even the most expensive comparison) market.
For example : HRE wheels cost 40% more than Forgelines. Fine.... I buy that because they are 10 lbs lighter per corner which makes a substantial difference in driving dynamics. But they are not 400% more expensive, they dont cost $20-30k. They cost $8-9k vs $6k....
If you want to do intake, filter (larger), plenum, the cost is another $700 (all made in USA parts, all needed R&D, all being sold by companies who provide customer support around the clock, etc etc so all those arguments some will say dont matter).
So OK, ZR1 has 1 filter vs porsche's 2 and the plenum here is bigger, so double that cost. $1400. I dont understand why this is $8000, its pretty hefty. Maybe there is something here I dont understand/see. I am happy to pay more for something worth more, but there is a significant Porsche pricing here that far exceeds (and I mean %400 over even the most expensive comparison) market.
For example : HRE wheels cost 40% more than Forgelines. Fine.... I buy that because they are 10 lbs lighter per corner which makes a substantial difference in driving dynamics. But they are not 400% more expensive, they dont cost $20-30k. They cost $8-9k vs $6k....
Not sure why the hostility for someone stating the obvious. I know what it costs to manufacture and develop these products. I do it day in and day out for one of the largest manufacturers in the industry.
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ajw45 (10-29-2020)
10-29-2020, 02:09 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I have spent my entire adult working life in the automotive aftermarket manufacturing corridor and I’ll go out on a limb and state this logic is 100% sound. The entire exotic car aftermarket scene is like this and luckily I make my living selling products for domestic vehicles like Mustang, Camaro, etc...
Not sure why the hostility for someone stating the obvious. I know what it costs to manufacture and develop these products. I do it day in and day out for one of the largest manufacturers in the industry.
Not sure why the hostility for someone stating the obvious. I know what it costs to manufacture and develop these products. I do it day in and day out for one of the largest manufacturers in the industry.
Agreed. Dundon makes great products and I'm a repeat customer but with eyes open the Porsche tax is strong. That's not a Dundon exclusive, pretty much all the aftermarket companies charge what they can and they can and do charge more for the Porsche parts than say BMW.
10-29-2020, 10:27 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Not only does the guy who builds the TBs speak to me several times a day (and weekends), but also he has gone above and beyond helping me out, next day airing packages (so that it got to me on a Friday rather than Monday - which was purely superficial as I wanted to try it out over the weekend). On top of that, he has gone out of his way to buy a one off TB of another manufacturer and go through the trouble of doing a one off product for no reason other than he cares about his product and customer (just like Jamie does and nothing wrong with that).
I dealt with many US based aftermarket companies including MGW. You should google MGW shifters and you’ll be surprised with the quality (and by quality I mean at or above the numeric shifter which again costs 4 times MGW). I have installed MGW shifters in all my cars and I have seen numeric shifter first hand. I cannot sit here and defend the $1200 price tag of the numeric shifter given what I observed with MGW. As for customer support, they also have gone above and beyond mailing me spare parts, overnighting them, the owner George called me personally to address my questions.
My point is I know what high quality products are and I know good customer service. I also know what it means to produce things in house in good old USA. Its not cheap. Its not easy. And I appreciate that. But please lets not equate the brand tax with what these qualities actually cost in real life. Dont say these things to justify the cost. The cost of an item in capitalist economy is what the market pays for it, full stop. And thats a two way street. As much as a producer of the good is free to market their product accordingly, public is free to assess and provide their opinion of as such. Its a free country.
I dealt with many US based aftermarket companies including MGW. You should google MGW shifters and you’ll be surprised with the quality (and by quality I mean at or above the numeric shifter which again costs 4 times MGW). I have installed MGW shifters in all my cars and I have seen numeric shifter first hand. I cannot sit here and defend the $1200 price tag of the numeric shifter given what I observed with MGW. As for customer support, they also have gone above and beyond mailing me spare parts, overnighting them, the owner George called me personally to address my questions.
My point is I know what high quality products are and I know good customer service. I also know what it means to produce things in house in good old USA. Its not cheap. Its not easy. And I appreciate that. But please lets not equate the brand tax with what these qualities actually cost in real life. Dont say these things to justify the cost. The cost of an item in capitalist economy is what the market pays for it, full stop. And thats a two way street. As much as a producer of the good is free to market their product accordingly, public is free to assess and provide their opinion of as such. Its a free country.
I also agree MGW makes great products. I have been using them for my Vipers for over 15 years.
Someone can see this as a business opportunity...
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Apex Ace (10-29-2020)
10-29-2020, 12:02 PM
#53
I think when you call Dundon you know the difference vs others. I cant speak for Jamie and official policies but know stories from others where it is pretty black and white, you aint happy, let us know how to make u happy and if not happy, send it back for a full refund. How many shops handle customers like that? This attitude costs and i think Dundon, in my mind, is the leading shop these days.
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10-29-2020, 01:07 PM
#54
I think the question here is scale. Manufacturing, where its manufactured, and all that stuff everyone talked about is relevant, but scale keeps getting left out. You can charge cheaper prices for things when you order the component parts in bulk (due to quantity discounts). I don't think Dundon is selling stuff at the rate that the large manufacturers are and therefore its a like a boutique. Boutique products are obviously going to be more expensive than those made in large quantities coming out of a huge factory to be distributed nationally.
As per the marketing and name; all companies do this. In addition to paying for the guts of a product, you pay for the amount of time that goes into R&D, marketing, and branding. Lastly, I agree that exotic cars incur a tax, but I also think its a bit tougher to build parts for a motor that is already super strung out and is essentially derived from a highly developed race car (GT3 race cars).
Getting power out of a naturally aspirated motor that is already insane out of the factory is no easy feat and if you want to play...you gotta pay.
As per the marketing and name; all companies do this. In addition to paying for the guts of a product, you pay for the amount of time that goes into R&D, marketing, and branding. Lastly, I agree that exotic cars incur a tax, but I also think its a bit tougher to build parts for a motor that is already super strung out and is essentially derived from a highly developed race car (GT3 race cars).
Getting power out of a naturally aspirated motor that is already insane out of the factory is no easy feat and if you want to play...you gotta pay.
Last edited by Sunny_M3; 10-29-2020 at 01:10 PM.
10-29-2020, 01:10 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
The development cost of Chevy parts for a C7 throttle body are pretty low, and there are over 100 C7 out there for each 991.2 GT3RS in the U.S. market.
Some input on cost comparisons:
1) My old C7-Z06 and my old 2018 Yukon XL Denali shared some engine parts (a little too much). Then you factor other cars using the same engine: Cadillacs, Camaro SS and ZL1, etc. An aftermarket throttle body for a C7-ZR1 can be sold to hundreds of thousands of potential customers from multiple cars, while the 991.2 GT3 part would be restricted to a handful of potential customers, the R&D costs can be amortized much nicer to lower the price on high volume products.
2) No need to remove the engine in a C7 to develop a TB. The 991 GT engines need to be taken out to work on R&D for intake upgrades.
3) Most aftermarket TB are just machined out of stock parts from other models or same models. Porsche GT cars are well engineered, but there are not alternative TB from other models to adapt to the GT cars. For normal 991s and 981s, some GT parts can be used as an upgrade, but upgrade for the GT cars tend to be one-off. So, a TB manufacturer would have to produce a limited set of new specs, and that carries a high price tag.
4) If these intake parts for a Porsche GT car were any cheap to design and fabricate as some point out, why would not these well known brands offer a similar product?. As of today, Dundon is the only player in this game, and they have been victims of their own success by having companies try to clone their exhaust parts, and despite the cloning efforts, the clone offerings are limited.
5) Moving up the exotic ladder, if one were to put 2,000 man-hours to develop an intake for let's say the Mclaren F1, for which just 2% or 3% of the owners (meaning 2 or 3 cars) would buy the product, would those owner be willing to pay $150,000 for their intake kits? This is the example of a similar product for an even more limited car, without factoring materials and tools, just labor and technologies, and a lower than average profit as a percentage.
6) Mclaren has a factory MSO program, parts are expensive, because sales are very low, yet I see plenty of McLarens on the used market with these MSO parts.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the Dundon parts. I tested plenty of other brands blinded by the cheaper entry price, and when Dundon parts were installed and produced better results than what I expected, I realized I had just wasted time, labor charges, and plenty more money that having gone to the best in business product. Find me a better product for a lower price.
The C7-ZR1 analogy goes to Ford, Dodge, Subaru, Honda, Toyota even BMW/Audi/Mercedes. Once you get into the exotics and Porsche (not an exotic), aftermarket parts get pricier.
Don't like the price, don't buy it, don't cry.
Some input on cost comparisons:
1) My old C7-Z06 and my old 2018 Yukon XL Denali shared some engine parts (a little too much). Then you factor other cars using the same engine: Cadillacs, Camaro SS and ZL1, etc. An aftermarket throttle body for a C7-ZR1 can be sold to hundreds of thousands of potential customers from multiple cars, while the 991.2 GT3 part would be restricted to a handful of potential customers, the R&D costs can be amortized much nicer to lower the price on high volume products.
2) No need to remove the engine in a C7 to develop a TB. The 991 GT engines need to be taken out to work on R&D for intake upgrades.
3) Most aftermarket TB are just machined out of stock parts from other models or same models. Porsche GT cars are well engineered, but there are not alternative TB from other models to adapt to the GT cars. For normal 991s and 981s, some GT parts can be used as an upgrade, but upgrade for the GT cars tend to be one-off. So, a TB manufacturer would have to produce a limited set of new specs, and that carries a high price tag.
4) If these intake parts for a Porsche GT car were any cheap to design and fabricate as some point out, why would not these well known brands offer a similar product?. As of today, Dundon is the only player in this game, and they have been victims of their own success by having companies try to clone their exhaust parts, and despite the cloning efforts, the clone offerings are limited.
5) Moving up the exotic ladder, if one were to put 2,000 man-hours to develop an intake for let's say the Mclaren F1, for which just 2% or 3% of the owners (meaning 2 or 3 cars) would buy the product, would those owner be willing to pay $150,000 for their intake kits? This is the example of a similar product for an even more limited car, without factoring materials and tools, just labor and technologies, and a lower than average profit as a percentage.
6) Mclaren has a factory MSO program, parts are expensive, because sales are very low, yet I see plenty of McLarens on the used market with these MSO parts.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the Dundon parts. I tested plenty of other brands blinded by the cheaper entry price, and when Dundon parts were installed and produced better results than what I expected, I realized I had just wasted time, labor charges, and plenty more money that having gone to the best in business product. Find me a better product for a lower price.
The C7-ZR1 analogy goes to Ford, Dodge, Subaru, Honda, Toyota even BMW/Audi/Mercedes. Once you get into the exotics and Porsche (not an exotic), aftermarket parts get pricier.
Don't like the price, don't buy it, don't cry.
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10-29-2020, 10:36 PM
#57
The beauty of capitalism and free markets. No one is forcing you to buy Dundon. At the same time, Dundon doesnt need to make parts. They choose to so they can earn a decent amount of revenue, pay fixed and capital charges, taxes, pay employees (keep skilled folks around with proper wages/benefits) and hopefully have a couple of bucks in their jeans at the end of the day.
Businesses, small to large, take risks. Why would someone take the risk to make an ok to moderate return when you are on the hook for 100% of the downside; you're shooting for max profit obviously!
If there is one guy making 1 part for a low volume car, and that one guy took the risk/time/energy and made the investment to make it work properly, WTF can he not charge whatever the market will bear?
Last time I checked, aftermarket parts arent a regulated business like your gas or water bill!!
Businesses, small to large, take risks. Why would someone take the risk to make an ok to moderate return when you are on the hook for 100% of the downside; you're shooting for max profit obviously!
If there is one guy making 1 part for a low volume car, and that one guy took the risk/time/energy and made the investment to make it work properly, WTF can he not charge whatever the market will bear?
Last time I checked, aftermarket parts arent a regulated business like your gas or water bill!!
Last edited by bulldog_YYC; 10-29-2020 at 10:38 PM.
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twospyders (08-12-2024)
10-29-2020, 10:40 PM
#58
10-29-2020, 10:41 PM
#59
We typically recommend for folks to get a good suction wave from the exhaust. Akra is only about 5-6whp at high rpm so not a very powerful suction wave on the 991.2 GT3/RS.
How the intake works is by removing the restriction and allowing atmospheric pressure to get as close to the intake valve as possible, this way when the valve opens and there is a negative pressure (vacuum) in the cylinder from the headers, there is a large driving force to push air into the cylinder. It's the pressure difference from in the plenum to in the cylinder that allows the intake kit to "make" power. If there is only more atmospheric pressure in the plenum, and not significant suction in the cylinder then the effects of what the intake kit can do aren't as dramatic.
On a 991.2 GT3 with our street headers we make 20whp with the intake kit
On a 991.2 GT3RS with Akra we make about 12-15whp with the intake kit.
It all helps and the amount the car loses power past the 8200 rpm peak is reduced substantially.
Dundon generally doesn't do sales. What I can do for this thread as there does seem to be interest is I'll post a code good for 2 weeks and the links to the various intake packages for the 991.1 GT3, 991.1 GT3RS, 991.2 GT3, 991.2 Touring and 991.2 GT3RS. If you don't order before the code expires...
718 GT4 the intake is aluminum, and we're betting Porsche has something up their sleeves for the 718 GT4RS. We're going to wait and see what is coming... Then make something.
Mike's kit is for an RS only, if you have a touring, a 991.1 GT3 or a 991.2 GT3 you need a different kit.
I'll post a code in a separate post.
see above
Will post a code, you'll have to go to the cart to see what the % off is, not going to post it and please don't repost to others... I'll cancel it if I see it. Too often we post a special price on Rennlist and someone see's it 9 months later and somehow thinks it's still available.
Depends on options and the car. Full Exhaust/Intake kit for the GT3RS is 15-20k. Dual Cone Airbox and 93mm TB/Plenum kit is $7990
How the intake works is by removing the restriction and allowing atmospheric pressure to get as close to the intake valve as possible, this way when the valve opens and there is a negative pressure (vacuum) in the cylinder from the headers, there is a large driving force to push air into the cylinder. It's the pressure difference from in the plenum to in the cylinder that allows the intake kit to "make" power. If there is only more atmospheric pressure in the plenum, and not significant suction in the cylinder then the effects of what the intake kit can do aren't as dramatic.
On a 991.2 GT3 with our street headers we make 20whp with the intake kit
On a 991.2 GT3RS with Akra we make about 12-15whp with the intake kit.
It all helps and the amount the car loses power past the 8200 rpm peak is reduced substantially.
Dundon generally doesn't do sales. What I can do for this thread as there does seem to be interest is I'll post a code good for 2 weeks and the links to the various intake packages for the 991.1 GT3, 991.1 GT3RS, 991.2 GT3, 991.2 Touring and 991.2 GT3RS. If you don't order before the code expires...
718 GT4 the intake is aluminum, and we're betting Porsche has something up their sleeves for the 718 GT4RS. We're going to wait and see what is coming... Then make something.
Mike's kit is for an RS only, if you have a touring, a 991.1 GT3 or a 991.2 GT3 you need a different kit.
I'll post a code in a separate post.
see above
Will post a code, you'll have to go to the cart to see what the % off is, not going to post it and please don't repost to others... I'll cancel it if I see it. Too often we post a special price on Rennlist and someone see's it 9 months later and somehow thinks it's still available.
Depends on options and the car. Full Exhaust/Intake kit for the GT3RS is 15-20k. Dual Cone Airbox and 93mm TB/Plenum kit is $7990
10-30-2020, 12:46 PM
#60
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And the idea that these intake kits cost $100’s and we charge thousands is laughable. Even the filters are custom. And anyone that questions it check what the pricing on industrial 3D printing is. That’s how these are made. Or don’t and as I’ve said from the beginning.
One thing no one has mentioned in this food chain is that as a manufacturer we have Dealers as well. Your local shop, or Porsche Dealer expects margin for selling you the part.
Ever wonder why I said for that discount you had to purchase direct?
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Dundon Motorsports
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Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
Facebook.com/dundonmotorsports
Instagram @dundon_motorsports
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