911dev

deleted...

signes

This brings up an interesting question. Porsche provided maintenance intervals when tracked for things like hubs/centerlocks (IIRC 6,000 track miles) but nothing for engine rebuilds. I don't have the track supplement at hand, but I would have thought if there was a specific need to do a rebuild at an interval an owner might hit they would include that in the service schedule. Obviously at some point it will be necessary.

0to60

Agree with the above. And yes Wax is Uber defensive not only on the .1 RS but also the Salmon color. To each his own, I guess

bammb

Looks like the car sold. Not listed on autotrader. Someone got a good deal.

drdonger

Yep, don't see it on their website. I hope a Rennlister got it.

FORENN

FORENN

destaccado

I'm not conflating anything. Even the opposite is true. How's the value on those rare Tiptronic 911's holding up?

Very simply - you don't have a clue about the future values but speak as though there's no debate and your emotion will lead to the future reality.

Here's the facts - the 991.1 RS was produced in far greater numbers than any RS before it. It has an engine regarded as inferior to both a 4.0 Mezger and the latest 4.0 in the new GT3 ...and in "classic car settings" across the board, regardless of how rare MT production was, slushboxes are worth less. On top of that, regardless of available transmission choices, the 991.2 RS is going to be better in every single way making the 991.1 RS the value proposition only.

In the long run I bet the 991.1 RS becomes the cheapest RS out of all of them built to date.

Petevb

Yep. There's nothing magical about the street engines as they all follow the same laws of physics, and revs are the biggest issue.

There are a number of components that have a defined fatigue life which decreases exponentially with stress: titanium rods and aluminum pistons will fatigue out, it's simply a matter of the number of stress cycles before failure. Stress increases to the square of RPM, so going to 9k is 12% higher stress than 8.5k. That increase in stress can then in reduce part life by 70% depending on where you are on the fatigue curve.

Porsche reduced redline in the Cup to 8500 from 8800 in the RS (if it ever actually gets there) and 9k in the 991.2. Taken at face value I would expect this change to roughly half the fatigue life of the RS's engine if both were regularly taken to redline. Those that don't care about the last 10th will often take the Cup engine's recommended rebuild schedule with a grain of salt and push past it. My very rough scale assuming you're pushing at race pace as far as the engine is concerned: up to 2x you're mostly losing a little performance and making your rebuild more expensive when it does come. From 2-3x you're running noticeable risk, beyond 3x you're asking for a catastrophic failure. So for a 991.2 GT3 treated like a cup and run to 9K all the time that would translate to ~40 hours for a (conservative) cup scheduled rebuild, 80 hours for more middle of the road and 120 hours if you're aggressive. Multiply by ~1.5 for a lower redline RS and ~100 mph average speed and you're at between ~6000 and ~18,000 track miles depending.

That would set my expectations, then I'd look at compression and leakdown (or speed at the end of the straight if you're running data), as ring wear will give you early warning. Short shift, especially on the banking at Daytona, and you can extend that significantly. Porsche probably doesn't quote a number because usage is so different. A guy who's clawing through the last 200 rpm constantly at the end of long straights is going to get a completely different life than the guy who's mostly using 2nd through 4th on shorter tracks and shifting 300 rpm before redline. In both cases the suspension bits (also defined by fatigue life) probably get a similar workout.

The cynical might also argue that Porsche is less likely to get hit with a wrongful death lawsuit is a motor blows vs an upright snapping.

bammb

These cars are still street cars. If they're going to be driven at 10/10ths all the time on track, then they need to be properly maintained like race cars. I don't feel comfortable going 10/10ths unless in a race car with all safety devices in place.

Waxer

Waxer

Seems someone has their panties in a bunch.
Yes. seems we don't agree on much. That's fine.
My crystal ball as to values and predicitions is just as good as your crystal ball I'm certain of that. Therefore my crystal ball's predications are just as valid as yours for now.

Here are some facts as opposed to hyperbole. Your statements regarding "inferiority" of the .1RS 4.0 are pure nonsense from a real world standpoint and clearly fueled by emotion with no factual support or empherical anything to support it. A bald faced effort to smear an epic engine and car. Bush league. Sounds like your "emotion" is trying to lead to where you want to go without basis. Could that your validating your own misguided notion that your .2GT3 is "better" than the .1RS?

Also, just who is it regard's the .1RS 4.0 as inferior (besides obviously you) to both the preceding 4.0 engine and the successor? Names please. Article sites. Oh, I see it's just ubiquitous "they" or "them" or "everyone"? LOL.

Oh, wait the solid lifters. Yes, yes. Of course. We of course already know and are sure there will be no issues with the .2 4.0? Right? Of that your certain right? Based on what??? Oh, your crystal ball? Forgot.

News flash. I Don't need my crystal ball as to the reliability of the .1 4.0RS lump.I have almost 3 years hindsight of use and real world testing. Been pretty damn good from what I've seen. Oh, wait I forgot the .1RS 4.0 is so "inferior" because it only revs to 8800 not 9000. Ugh. I forgot. I won't sleep tongiht.

The street Mezger? Great engine (hydraulic valved btw). Certainly had it's issues though. Some serious. I've seen Mezgers that blew just going for ice cream. Seriously. What makes the Mezger superior to the .1 4.0? PAG didn't think it was superior clearly.

Has PAG improved their engines with each model and refresh or generation? Of course. No argument. Whether that renders the others before it "inferior" (except you even think the .1 4.0 is inferior to the one before it too) is a bit of an over zealous statement and smear. Certainly not inferior for it's intended use or real world performance even with the huge 9000 rpm vs. 8800 rpm difference.

Fact, while the new engine has improvements...the .1 4.0 certainly not inferior based on expected life of use of the car or warranty or enjoyment or day to day performance. Did PAG extend the warranty on the .2 4.0? No. Don't think so. I guess they don't think its that much better.

.1RS produced in far greater numbers? So what is "far greater"? and tell us how many were produced please. I did the math based on data accumulated here, production capacities and its without question in my mind between 3000 and 3500 WW. If you want to buy the Wiki figures which likely just parrotted the nonsensical numbers just tossed around on this site go right ahead. Your free to do that. Please do.

Yes. The .2GT3RS will be better. News flash. The next GT3 will be better than the .2GT3. And so it goes.

You are actually using the Tiptronic for your support to debunk my position? Whoa. To silly/ridiculous to even respond to.

Since your crystal ball predicts that the .1RS values will be lowest RS values of them all which is certainly a possibiltiy...your crytal ball should also tell you a comprable .1RS with it's "inferior" engine will still be worth more than your comprable .2GT3.

My bet is that the .2GT3RS will be produced in very limited numbers. Next to impossible to get with huge adms. Want an RS? I wouldn't sell you mine out of principle but if I was to sell it....I think under this scenario $265K seems fair.

Regardless of value the .1RS is an epic car.

Cheers. ; )

carcommander

Drifting

agree with jimmy.

I'd choose a 991.2 GT3 over a 991.1 RS all day for the same cosmetic reasons.......plus improved steering, PDK, RWS calibration, much better internal electronics with apple carplay, google maps, and also more of a true race engine in the .2 GT3 compared to the .1 RS

destaccado

Porsche decided the Mezger was superior by continuously using it for years in their race cars in spite of the release of the 991.1 RS... Further, dyno charts show the 4.0 Mezger is superior. Porsche's decision to use the new motor in their new race car shows that the new motor is superior as well. They basically skipped right over your "epic" engine in Motorsport. Further, my feeling of the .2 GT3 MT superiority isn't because I own one - that's why I chose it in the first place. If there's a confirmation bias displayed here it's your own based on making the purchase when only one of the choices was an option.

Porsche's Motorsport division

No we don't know that. There very well might be issues.

I don't recall calling it a poor or unreliable engine - just inferior to the other 4.0 motors Porsche has offered.

Sure Porsche considered it superior. They moved away from it due to cost, emissions, and fuel consumption. ...and still continued to use it in their race cars.

Depends on what you consider an improvement. The 991.1 RS engine wasn't an improvement to the 4.0 Mezger except maybe in saving the world from catastrophic climate change . Porsche Motorsport proved that.

I've explained why I feel it's inferior.

Warranty extensions are typically done when there's an issue. Do Honda and Toyota have long warranties?

There's already other threads on Rennlist with people explaining to you that your paper napkin math on production numbers is most likely wrong. Considering you base your numbers on nothing but hot air and ignore the fact that the USA is a shrinking market I'm inclined to find the views of others more reliable. Waxer: "GT production is limited by many factors physical and market. Further those who own these cars tend to live in upper class areas where you would expect to see them or go to places where it wouldn't be surprising. When I see them driving around Newark NJ I'll rethink my position."

Yes. I've driven both. Both get left in the auto mode and have little to no driver involvement. I used Tiptronic to prove that rarity of a transmission type isn't the only part to value. People that collect classics prefer manuals when offered - regardless of the brand. How many cars where both transmissions were offered are more valuable in automatic?

I would hope so. The GT3 is priced quite a bit cheaper. ...but we'll see. A 991.1 RS will probably hold greater value than a PDK .2 GT3.