991.1 GT3RS's under or near MSRP now
01-17-2018 | 10:14 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 11,298
Likes: 1,496
From: Midwest
You two need s room or something.- or may be a steel cage 
Maybe you two need to meet one day and have a beer and read your posts to each other so you both can look each other in the face and see who laughs first
Maybe you two need to meet one day and have a beer and read your posts to each other so you both can look each other in the face and see who laughs first
01-17-2018 | 10:23 PM
#77
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 944
Likes: 32
From: Los Angeles
01-17-2018 | 10:49 PM
#78
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,435
Likes: 818
From: Central New Jersey
Porsche decided the Mezger was superior by continuously using it for years in their race cars in spite of the release of the 991.1 RS... Further, dyno charts show the 4.0 Mezger is superior. Porsche's decision to use the new motor in their new race car shows that the new motor is superior as well. They basically skipped right over your "epic" engine in Motorsport. Further, my feeling of the .2 GT3 MT superiority isn't because I own one - that's why I chose it in the first place. If there's a confirmation bias displayed here it's your own based on making the purchase when only one of the choices was an option.
Glad you cite PAG to support your position. I agree pretty authoritative. Fact. Mezger was replaced by the 9A1. Fact. If PAG didn't think the 9A1 was a better engine they would have kept the Mezger. Fact. 991GT3R used the .1 4.0. Fact. Confirmed by me with owners and race teams that own/ed race/d them. No issues. Fact, solid lifter engine developed due to issues with 3.8 GT3 engine valve trains. Walliser further confirmed to the COG that the 3.8 valve train issue was sporadic/hit or miss due to faulty parts/materials from supplier for the 3.8. Not all 3.8's have the issue.
Metzger had its issues and some serioius. IMS for one. Still an issue of concern for these engines today on resale.
Sure Porsche considered it superior. They moved away from it due to cost, emissions, and fuel consumption. ...and still continued to use it in their race cars.
Sounds like ":inferiority" to me when the new 9A1 4.0 was better on fuel and emissions and proved to be more reliable and performed flawlessly in the GT3R. Also was faster than the Mezgerputting any technical dyno analysis aside..
Depends on what you consider an improvement. The 991.1 RS engine wasn't an improvement to the 4.0 Mezger except maybe in saving the world from catastrophic climate change
. Porsche Motorsport proved that.
Not accurate. See above. As to saving the world from climate change, if you believe in it I guess l that too....I'll take it.
I've explained why I feel it's inferior.
Ah, now we drilled down on it. Why "you feel it's inferior". I match that and raise you "I don't feel it's inferior".
Warranty extensions are typically done when there's an issue. Do Honda and Toyota have long warranties?
Well I was just saying that with all this "superiority" and such of the .2 4.0 I would think Porsche would increase their warranties, after all, ain't nothing gonna happen to those screaming .2 4.0's. Great marketing point. Odd, its has the same warranty period as the inferior engine. Strange.
There's already other threads on Rennlist with people explaining to you that your paper napkin math on production numbers is most likely wrong. Considering you base your numbers on nothing but hot air and ignore the fact that the USA is a shrinking market I'm inclined to find the views of others more reliable. Waxer: "GT production is limited by many factors physical and market. Further those who own these cars tend to live in upper class areas where you would expect to see them or go to places where it wouldn't be surprising. When I see them driving around Newark NJ I'll rethink my position."
Its not the napkin that counts its the math on the napkin. And btw it wasn't a napkin. It was a Post It that hangs on my refrigarator as I type. My numbers were not based on "hot air". I have noted my calculations and the source of info elsewhere. There were a number of sources for my calculations. I do know that at least I made the effort to make the calculations based on actual known information rather then just spout off or repeat what someone heard from a salesman who was told by a service manager who was told by the finance guy who heard from some janitor at PAG in Germany etc... Not going to rehash it. I've done that enough and it seems to matter not here. Guys here were just winging numbers here and there. Whatever. Doesn't change the facts. That's fine. You go right ahead and believe what you want. I see it makes you happy.
Aside from you marketing lesson on the factors affecting production I was totally unaware that the USA is a shrinking market for GT cars? I'm really confused now. The US market was the market that was responsible for PAG deciding on the second run of .1RS production beginning in March 2016 through December 2016 that brought WW production from 2500 original to a gazillon billion .1RS's in 9 months.
Where is your data that says the US market is a shrinking market? Last I heard and saw guys here are fighting over .2GT3 allocations and paying ADMS. Doesn't sound like a withering market to me. I thought it was primarily the US market that was also responsible for convincing PAG to bring back the mt for the GT3. I don't understand how a shrinking market could have such influence.
Also, I understand PAG has been and is pumping .2GT3's out full steam ahead until the end of 2018. Now we are talking 5000 to 6000 WW. Good news then...., you'll be happy to know that it looks like your .2GT3 may be highest produced GT to date. A thousand gazillion billion. At least. Congrats!
Yes. I've driven both. Both get left in the auto mode and have little to no driver involvement. I used Tiptronic to prove that rarity of a transmission type isn't the only part to value. People that collect classics prefer manuals when offered - regardless of the brand. How many cars where both transmissions were offered are more valuable in automatic?
In classic cars. Unless it only came in auto, like a Caddy. Zero. You made my point. You use of the Tiptronic was poor. Universally despised features don't help any car's resale except in rare cases where it may be some sort of novelty now hard to find.
Today's PDK can in no way shape, form or permutation be compared to the "tiptronic". I would say "nice try" put it was a so bad I can't say it as figure of speech as it would give it too much credit.
I would hope so. The GT3 is priced quite a bit cheaper. ...but we'll see. A 991.1 RS will probably hold greater value than a PDK .2 GT3.
Glad you cite PAG to support your position. I agree pretty authoritative. Fact. Mezger was replaced by the 9A1. Fact. If PAG didn't think the 9A1 was a better engine they would have kept the Mezger. Fact. 991GT3R used the .1 4.0. Fact. Confirmed by me with owners and race teams that own/ed race/d them. No issues. Fact, solid lifter engine developed due to issues with 3.8 GT3 engine valve trains. Walliser further confirmed to the COG that the 3.8 valve train issue was sporadic/hit or miss due to faulty parts/materials from supplier for the 3.8. Not all 3.8's have the issue.
Metzger had its issues and some serioius. IMS for one. Still an issue of concern for these engines today on resale.
Sure Porsche considered it superior. They moved away from it due to cost, emissions, and fuel consumption. ...and still continued to use it in their race cars.
Sounds like ":inferiority" to me when the new 9A1 4.0 was better on fuel and emissions and proved to be more reliable and performed flawlessly in the GT3R. Also was faster than the Mezgerputting any technical dyno analysis aside..
Depends on what you consider an improvement. The 991.1 RS engine wasn't an improvement to the 4.0 Mezger except maybe in saving the world from catastrophic climate change
. Porsche Motorsport proved that. Not accurate. See above. As to saving the world from climate change, if you believe in it I guess l that too....I'll take it.
I've explained why I feel it's inferior.
Ah, now we drilled down on it. Why "you feel it's inferior". I match that and raise you "I don't feel it's inferior".
Warranty extensions are typically done when there's an issue. Do Honda and Toyota have long warranties?
Well I was just saying that with all this "superiority" and such of the .2 4.0 I would think Porsche would increase their warranties, after all, ain't nothing gonna happen to those screaming .2 4.0's. Great marketing point. Odd, its has the same warranty period as the inferior engine. Strange.
There's already other threads on Rennlist with people explaining to you that your paper napkin math on production numbers is most likely wrong. Considering you base your numbers on nothing but hot air and ignore the fact that the USA is a shrinking market I'm inclined to find the views of others more reliable. Waxer: "GT production is limited by many factors physical and market. Further those who own these cars tend to live in upper class areas where you would expect to see them or go to places where it wouldn't be surprising. When I see them driving around Newark NJ I'll rethink my position."
Its not the napkin that counts its the math on the napkin. And btw it wasn't a napkin. It was a Post It that hangs on my refrigarator as I type. My numbers were not based on "hot air". I have noted my calculations and the source of info elsewhere. There were a number of sources for my calculations. I do know that at least I made the effort to make the calculations based on actual known information rather then just spout off or repeat what someone heard from a salesman who was told by a service manager who was told by the finance guy who heard from some janitor at PAG in Germany etc... Not going to rehash it. I've done that enough and it seems to matter not here. Guys here were just winging numbers here and there. Whatever. Doesn't change the facts. That's fine. You go right ahead and believe what you want. I see it makes you happy.
Aside from you marketing lesson on the factors affecting production I was totally unaware that the USA is a shrinking market for GT cars? I'm really confused now. The US market was the market that was responsible for PAG deciding on the second run of .1RS production beginning in March 2016 through December 2016 that brought WW production from 2500 original to a gazillon billion .1RS's in 9 months.
Where is your data that says the US market is a shrinking market? Last I heard and saw guys here are fighting over .2GT3 allocations and paying ADMS. Doesn't sound like a withering market to me. I thought it was primarily the US market that was also responsible for convincing PAG to bring back the mt for the GT3. I don't understand how a shrinking market could have such influence.
Also, I understand PAG has been and is pumping .2GT3's out full steam ahead until the end of 2018. Now we are talking 5000 to 6000 WW. Good news then...., you'll be happy to know that it looks like your .2GT3 may be highest produced GT to date. A thousand gazillion billion. At least. Congrats!
Yes. I've driven both. Both get left in the auto mode and have little to no driver involvement. I used Tiptronic to prove that rarity of a transmission type isn't the only part to value. People that collect classics prefer manuals when offered - regardless of the brand. How many cars where both transmissions were offered are more valuable in automatic?
In classic cars. Unless it only came in auto, like a Caddy. Zero. You made my point. You use of the Tiptronic was poor. Universally despised features don't help any car's resale except in rare cases where it may be some sort of novelty now hard to find.
Today's PDK can in no way shape, form or permutation be compared to the "tiptronic". I would say "nice try" put it was a so bad I can't say it as figure of speech as it would give it too much credit.
I would hope so. The GT3 is priced quite a bit cheaper. ...but we'll see. A 991.1 RS will probably hold greater value than a PDK .2 GT3.
Hey if your around Newark, I'm not far, PM me I'll meet you and buy you a cup of coffee at Panera so you can trash my RS in person.
Cheers
01-18-2018 | 06:57 PM
#81
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,531
Likes: 1,250
From: Indiana
how can the aero be better? I'm looking at both in my garage as we speak, the wing on my RS is massive, the wing on my 991.2 GT3 looks like T-rex arms in comparison. Certainly there are some internals at play too besides just wings. Just curious. Both are great cars, so not sure why all the animosity.
01-18-2018 | 08:23 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,004
Likes: 1,041
From: ...PA...
All sorts of subjectivity aside, the aero physically can not be better on the 991.2 Gt3 than the RS. That's literally an absurd statement. However, does it feel like it sticks like the RS? Possibly, but that's all in your butt, not a wind tunnel...
...that sounds bad but you know what I mean.
...that sounds bad but you know what I mean.
01-18-2018 | 08:31 PM
#83
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,138
Likes: 285
Has PAG improved their engines with each model and refresh or generation? Of course. No argument. Whether that renders the others before it "inferior" (except you even think the .1 4.0 is inferior to the one before it too) is a bit of an over zealous statement and smear. Certainly not inferior for it's intended use or real world performance even with the huge 9000 rpm vs. 8800 rpm difference.
Holy Christ do you contradict yourself in just about every post. So you're (as well as EVERY single person, including the manufacture of the engine) saying the .2GT3 engine is improved over the .1RS. But, the .1RS engine isn't inferior. But, it is. But, not in real world performance. But, that too. But, it's only 200 more redline. But 200 > 0.
Dizzying...
My bet is that the .2GT3RS will be produced in very limited numbers. Next to impossible to get with huge adms. Want an RS? I wouldn't sell you mine out of principle but if I was to sell it....I think under this scenario $265K seems fair.
Holy Christ do you contradict yourself in just about every post. So you're (as well as EVERY single person, including the manufacture of the engine) saying the .2GT3 engine is improved over the .1RS. But, the .1RS engine isn't inferior. But, it is. But, not in real world performance. But, that too. But, it's only 200 more redline. But 200 > 0.
Dizzying...
My bet is that the .2GT3RS will be produced in very limited numbers. Next to impossible to get with huge adms. Want an RS? I wouldn't sell you mine out of principle but if I was to sell it....I think under this scenario $265K seems fair.
Call it the "holy crap, how many times will he say an rs is an rs" 100K discount.
01-18-2018 | 09:02 PM
#84
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,651
Likes: 667
SInce you're not capable of posting something that does not refer to the .1RS value, the .1RS limited quantity produced, and the perpetual contradiction, I think that due to us reading what your write, $165K seems fair for your salmon RS.
Call it the "holy crap, how many times will he say an rs is an rs" 100K discount.
Call it the "holy crap, how many times will he say an rs is an rs" 100K discount.
01-18-2018 | 09:24 PM
#86
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 12
6000 .1RS manufactured, limited LOL
.1RS motor superior to the .2GT3 motor LOL
Salmon colored is desirable, LOL
An RS is an RS, LOL
Some owners are so headstrong, they believe their own BS
The RS is only superior to the GT3 until the itineration is updated, then the updated GT3 takes the lead over the prior RS. Then the new RS jumps the previous GT3 and the game goes on and on. Price wise the entry point is higher for an RS than a GT3 so I don't see the "value" in the RS.
.1RS motor superior to the .2GT3 motor LOL
Salmon colored is desirable, LOL
An RS is an RS, LOL
Some owners are so headstrong, they believe their own BS
The RS is only superior to the GT3 until the itineration is updated, then the updated GT3 takes the lead over the prior RS. Then the new RS jumps the previous GT3 and the game goes on and on. Price wise the entry point is higher for an RS than a GT3 so I don't see the "value" in the RS.
01-18-2018 | 11:04 PM
#90
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,435
Likes: 818
From: Central New Jersey
Amazing the issues with reading comprehension here.
I agree PAG has said they made some "improvements" with the .2 4.0. Yes, there are some improved 'bits and bobs' here and there and there is the solid valve train but alot of this is marketing blather. Main point is how have these improvements rendered the .2 4.0 "superior" with regard to real world use, praticality and ownership?
Power? The same. Performance? About the same. Exhaust sound? Very close. Reliability? We have a track record with the .1 4.0 that shows it to be a very reliable and stout lump. As to the .2 4.0 the jury is still out. Hopefully it proves very reliable. Mechanical GT engine sounds. Advantage .1 4.0. Enjoyment? Tie. Max rpms? .2 wins with 200 more. Warranty period against mechanical defects and failures? The same. Seems that with all the nonsensical claims by .2 GT3 owners of how superior the .2 4.0 is PAG apparently didn't think it was enough of an "improvement" to change their bet on it over the .1 4.0. If the .2 .4.0 is that superior I would think 4.0 would change the warranty period as a marketing tool to tout the .2 superiority. What would they have to lose if the .2 4.0 is that much better? 0. Sounds like PAG not putting any money where their mouth is. I'm not saying some improvements weren't made. I'm just saying that practically speaking they don't amount to a hill of **** in the real world and to expected periods of ownership. You want to buy all the "blather" go right ahead.
I've wasted enough time posting the info and calcuations on .1RS production. I'm not wasting my time with it because candidly .2 owners don't want to hear it, believe it or try to follow it. That's just fine. Could'nt care less and have no interest in trying lead the blind when they refuse to see. LOL. You guys go with the Wiki figures. After all they more than likely got that 6000 figure from all the unsupported ridiculous numbers thrown around here on this site.
.2GT3 is a great and magnificent car. Not knocking it. However, GT3 will always be < RS. Those that argue or convince themselves otherwise, well ....LOL.
Colors are subjective. Some see salmon with LO. Some see my Avatar. I do. Green is nice but some see
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say.
Cheers.
I agree PAG has said they made some "improvements" with the .2 4.0. Yes, there are some improved 'bits and bobs' here and there and there is the solid valve train but alot of this is marketing blather. Main point is how have these improvements rendered the .2 4.0 "superior" with regard to real world use, praticality and ownership?
Power? The same. Performance? About the same. Exhaust sound? Very close. Reliability? We have a track record with the .1 4.0 that shows it to be a very reliable and stout lump. As to the .2 4.0 the jury is still out. Hopefully it proves very reliable. Mechanical GT engine sounds. Advantage .1 4.0. Enjoyment? Tie. Max rpms? .2 wins with 200 more. Warranty period against mechanical defects and failures? The same. Seems that with all the nonsensical claims by .2 GT3 owners of how superior the .2 4.0 is PAG apparently didn't think it was enough of an "improvement" to change their bet on it over the .1 4.0. If the .2 .4.0 is that superior I would think 4.0 would change the warranty period as a marketing tool to tout the .2 superiority. What would they have to lose if the .2 4.0 is that much better? 0. Sounds like PAG not putting any money where their mouth is. I'm not saying some improvements weren't made. I'm just saying that practically speaking they don't amount to a hill of **** in the real world and to expected periods of ownership. You want to buy all the "blather" go right ahead.
I've wasted enough time posting the info and calcuations on .1RS production. I'm not wasting my time with it because candidly .2 owners don't want to hear it, believe it or try to follow it. That's just fine. Could'nt care less and have no interest in trying lead the blind when they refuse to see. LOL. You guys go with the Wiki figures. After all they more than likely got that 6000 figure from all the unsupported ridiculous numbers thrown around here on this site.
.2GT3 is a great and magnificent car. Not knocking it. However, GT3 will always be < RS. Those that argue or convince themselves otherwise, well ....LOL.
Colors are subjective. Some see salmon with LO. Some see my Avatar. I do. Green is nice but some see
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say.
Cheers.