991.1 GT3RS's under or near MSRP now
#62
Originally Posted by Petevb
If it was really tracked for all of those miles it would be nearing time for an engine rebuild soon. 991.2 Cup engines and gearbox need a scheduled rebuild at 100 hours, and keep in mind that engine was de-tuned from the street car in order to increase longevity. Yes they are designed to be tracked, but usage is still all important.
#63
Originally Posted by drdonger
You are always so defensive about the .1 RS. The person who owned that car actually traded it in for a .2 GT3. Some people buy cars for the experience moreso than the future resale. They want the newest and best thing. If I didn’t get a .2 GT3 in manual I would have kept my GT4 over a .1 RS because of the experience of a manual. When the .2 RS comes out, it will improve on the .1 in every way and will also be produced in less numbers. Will you be getting a .2 RS or will you be saying the .1 RS looks better, feels more raw and how you car is better, yada yada? I posted the car here because I thought it was a good deal now that prices came down and so someone would enjoy it. Who cares what these cars will be worth in a few years? If you want to make some money, stick your 200k in an S&P index or your business.
#66
I see the asking prices, but this is hard to believe.
A lot easier to believe. ^^^
A lot easier to believe. ^^^
#67
You are always so defensive about the .1 RS. The person who owned that car actually traded it in for a .2 GT3. Some people buy cars for the experience moreso than the future resale. They want the newest and best thing. If I didn’t get a .2 GT3 in manual I would have kept my GT4 over a .1 RS because of the experience of a manual. When the .2 RS comes out, it will improve on the .1 in every way and will also be produced in less numbers. Will you be getting a .2 RS or will you be saying the .1 RS looks better, feels more raw and how you car is better, yada yada? I posted the car here because I thought it was a good deal now that prices came down and so someone would enjoy it. Who cares what these cars will be worth in a few years? If you want to make some money, stick your 200k in an S&P index or your business.
#68
First, you are conflating classic car senarieos with present day production offerings. In classic car settings where mt was rare in production like the F430, 987.2 Spyder, classic muscle etc this is certainly true.
Very simply, a lot of .2 GT3 with mt means they will have no special value over Porsche PDK in today’s world especially with PDK superior performance.
Very simply - you don't have a clue about the future values but speak as though there's no debate and your emotion will lead to the future reality.
Here's the facts - the 991.1 RS was produced in far greater numbers than any RS before it. It has an engine regarded as inferior to both a 4.0 Mezger and the latest 4.0 in the new GT3 ...and in "classic car settings" across the board, regardless of how rare MT production was, slushboxes are worth less. On top of that, regardless of available transmission choices, the 991.2 RS is going to be better in every single way making the 991.1 RS the value proposition only.
In the long run I bet the 991.1 RS becomes the cheapest RS out of all of them built to date.
#69
Service intervals for 991.2 Cup went from 50 to 100 hours for motor and from 30 to 60 hours for trans. Street and Cup motors are now the same save some ancillary bits not needed on Cup. I agree that they can and do go beyond recommended service intervals but it all comes down to your tolerance for performance decline and the risk of a much bigger repair bill the further one goes past recommended service intervals. I disagree that racing is somehow harder on the motor than serious DE use unless you're participating in a standing-start series. The only difference between DE guys focused on shaving tenths in 20-30 minute sessions and drivers in race series is that they're not rubbing fenders. Now if you're puttering around at 7/10ths in DE that's a different story.
This brings up an interesting question. Porsche provided maintenance intervals when tracked for things like hubs/centerlocks (IIRC 6,000 track miles) but nothing for engine rebuilds. I don't have the track supplement at hand, but I would have thought if there was a specific need to do a rebuild at an interval an owner might hit they would include that in the service schedule. Obviously at some point it will be necessary.
There are a number of components that have a defined fatigue life which decreases exponentially with stress: titanium rods and aluminum pistons will fatigue out, it's simply a matter of the number of stress cycles before failure. Stress increases to the square of RPM, so going to 9k is 12% higher stress than 8.5k. That increase in stress can then in reduce part life by 70% depending on where you are on the fatigue curve.
Porsche reduced redline in the Cup to 8500 from 8800 in the RS (if it ever actually gets there) and 9k in the 991.2. Taken at face value I would expect this change to roughly half the fatigue life of the RS's engine if both were regularly taken to redline. Those that don't care about the last 10th will often take the Cup engine's recommended rebuild schedule with a grain of salt and push past it. My very rough scale assuming you're pushing at race pace as far as the engine is concerned: up to 2x you're mostly losing a little performance and making your rebuild more expensive when it does come. From 2-3x you're running noticeable risk, beyond 3x you're asking for a catastrophic failure. So for a 991.2 GT3 treated like a cup and run to 9K all the time that would translate to ~40 hours for a (conservative) cup scheduled rebuild, 80 hours for more middle of the road and 120 hours if you're aggressive. Multiply by ~1.5 for a lower redline RS and ~100 mph average speed and you're at between ~6000 and ~18,000 track miles depending.
That would set my expectations, then I'd look at compression and leakdown (or speed at the end of the straight if you're running data), as ring wear will give you early warning. Short shift, especially on the banking at Daytona, and you can extend that significantly. Porsche probably doesn't quote a number because usage is so different. A guy who's clawing through the last 200 rpm constantly at the end of long straights is going to get a completely different life than the guy who's mostly using 2nd through 4th on shorter tracks and shifting 300 rpm before redline. In both cases the suspension bits (also defined by fatigue life) probably get a similar workout.
The cynical might also argue that Porsche is less likely to get hit with a wrongful death lawsuit is a motor blows vs an upright snapping.
#70
These cars are still street cars. If they're going to be driven at 10/10ths all the time on track, then they need to be properly maintained like race cars. I don't feel comfortable going 10/10ths unless in a race car with all safety devices in place.
#71
You are always so defensive about the .1 RS. The person who owned that car actually traded it in for a .2 GT3. Some people buy cars for the experience moreso than the future resale. They want the newest and best thing. If I didn’t get a .2 GT3 in manual I would have kept my GT4 over a .1 RS because of the experience of a manual. When the .2 RS comes out, it will improve on the .1 in every way and will also be produced in less numbers. Will you be getting a .2 RS or will you be saying the .1 RS looks better, feels more raw and how you car is better, yada yada? I posted the car here because I thought it was a good deal now that prices came down and so someone would enjoy it. Who cares what these cars will be worth in a few years? If you want to make some money, stick your 200k in an S&P index or your business.
If I cant get a .2GT3RS? Well .2 may be better but the .1 is still great.
GT4 vs RS? Different strokes.
#72
I'm not conflating anything. Even the opposite is true. How's the value on those rare Tiptronic 911's holding up?
Very simply - you don't have a clue about the future values but speak as though there's no debate and your emotion will lead to the future reality.
Here's the facts - the 991.1 RS was produced in far greater numbers than any RS before it. It has an engine regarded as inferior to both a 4.0 Mezger and the latest 4.0 in the new GT3 ...and in "classic car settings" across the board, regardless of how rare MT production was, slushboxes are worth less. On top of that, regardless of available transmission choices, the 991.2 RS is going to be better in every single way making the 991.1 RS the value proposition only.
In the long run I bet the 991.1 RS becomes the cheapest RS out of all of them built to date.
Very simply - you don't have a clue about the future values but speak as though there's no debate and your emotion will lead to the future reality.
Here's the facts - the 991.1 RS was produced in far greater numbers than any RS before it. It has an engine regarded as inferior to both a 4.0 Mezger and the latest 4.0 in the new GT3 ...and in "classic car settings" across the board, regardless of how rare MT production was, slushboxes are worth less. On top of that, regardless of available transmission choices, the 991.2 RS is going to be better in every single way making the 991.1 RS the value proposition only.
In the long run I bet the 991.1 RS becomes the cheapest RS out of all of them built to date.
Yes. seems we don't agree on much. That's fine.
My crystal ball as to values and predicitions is just as good as your crystal ball I'm certain of that. Therefore my crystal ball's predications are just as valid as yours for now.
Here are some facts as opposed to hyperbole. Your statements regarding "inferiority" of the .1RS 4.0 are pure nonsense from a real world standpoint and clearly fueled by emotion with no factual support or empherical anything to support it. A bald faced effort to smear an epic engine and car. Bush league. Sounds like your "emotion" is trying to lead to where you want to go without basis. Could that your validating your own misguided notion that your .2GT3 is "better" than the .1RS?
Also, just who is it regard's the .1RS 4.0 as inferior (besides obviously you) to both the preceding 4.0 engine and the successor? Names please. Article sites. Oh, I see it's just ubiquitous "they" or "them" or "everyone"? LOL.
Oh, wait the solid lifters. Yes, yes. Of course. We of course already know and are sure there will be no issues with the .2 4.0? Right? Of that your certain right? Based on what??? Oh, your crystal ball? Forgot.
News flash. I Don't need my crystal ball as to the reliability of the .1 4.0RS lump.I have almost 3 years hindsight of use and real world testing. Been pretty damn good from what I've seen. Oh, wait I forgot the .1RS 4.0 is so "inferior" because it only revs to 8800 not 9000. Ugh. I forgot. I won't sleep tongiht.
The street Mezger? Great engine (hydraulic valved btw). Certainly had it's issues though. Some serious. I've seen Mezgers that blew just going for ice cream. Seriously. What makes the Mezger superior to the .1 4.0? PAG didn't think it was superior clearly.
Has PAG improved their engines with each model and refresh or generation? Of course. No argument. Whether that renders the others before it "inferior" (except you even think the .1 4.0 is inferior to the one before it too) is a bit of an over zealous statement and smear. Certainly not inferior for it's intended use or real world performance even with the huge 9000 rpm vs. 8800 rpm difference.
Fact, while the new engine has improvements...the .1 4.0 certainly not inferior based on expected life of use of the car or warranty or enjoyment or day to day performance. Did PAG extend the warranty on the .2 4.0? No. Don't think so. I guess they don't think its that much better.
.1RS produced in far greater numbers? So what is "far greater"? and tell us how many were produced please. I did the math based on data accumulated here, production capacities and its without question in my mind between 3000 and 3500 WW. If you want to buy the Wiki figures which likely just parrotted the nonsensical numbers just tossed around on this site go right ahead. Your free to do that. Please do.
Yes. The .2GT3RS will be better. News flash. The next GT3 will be better than the .2GT3. And so it goes.
You are actually using the Tiptronic for your support to debunk my position? Whoa. To silly/ridiculous to even respond to.
Since your crystal ball predicts that the .1RS values will be lowest RS values of them all which is certainly a possibiltiy...your crytal ball should also tell you a comprable .1RS with it's "inferior" engine will still be worth more than your comprable .2GT3.
My bet is that the .2GT3RS will be produced in very limited numbers. Next to impossible to get with huge adms. Want an RS? I wouldn't sell you mine out of principle but if I was to sell it....I think under this scenario $265K seems fair.
Regardless of value the .1RS is an epic car.
Cheers. ; )
#73
While people are waiting for the .1 RS to crash in value, I have been enjoying mine for 2 years. With me in the seat my RS would leave my MTGT3.2 in the dust. The RS is epic. If you didn't get the last RS and the current GT3 you are probably not going to get a .2RS either. All this conversation is just bench racing.
#74
I'd choose a 991.2 GT3 over a 991.1 RS all day for the same cosmetic reasons.......plus improved steering, PDK, RWS calibration, much better internal electronics with apple carplay, google maps, and also more of a true race engine in the .2 GT3 compared to the .1 RS
#75
Seems someone has their panties in a bunch.
Here are some facts as opposed to hyperbole. Your statements regarding "inferiority" of the .1RS 4.0 are pure nonsense from a real world standpoint and clearly fueled by emotion with no factual support or empherical anything to support it. A bald faced effort to smear an epic engine and car. Bush league. Sounds like your "emotion" is trying to lead to where you want to go without basis. Could that your validating your own misguided notion that your .2GT3 is "better" than the .1RS?
Here are some facts as opposed to hyperbole. Your statements regarding "inferiority" of the .1RS 4.0 are pure nonsense from a real world standpoint and clearly fueled by emotion with no factual support or empherical anything to support it. A bald faced effort to smear an epic engine and car. Bush league. Sounds like your "emotion" is trying to lead to where you want to go without basis. Could that your validating your own misguided notion that your .2GT3 is "better" than the .1RS?
Also, just who is it regard's the .1RS 4.0 as inferior (besides obviously you) to both the preceding 4.0 engine and the successor? Names please. Article sites. Oh, I see it's just ubiquitous "they" or "them" or "everyone"? LOL.
Oh, wait the solid lifters. Yes, yes. Of course. We of course already know and are sure there will be no issues with the .2 4.0? Right? Of that your certain right? Based on what??? Oh, your crystal ball? Forgot.
News flash. I Don't need my crystal ball as to the reliability of the .1 4.0RS lump.I have almost 3 years hindsight of use and real world testing. Been pretty damn good from what I've seen. Oh, wait I forgot the .1RS 4.0 is so "inferior" because it only revs to 8800 not 9000. Ugh. I forgot. I won't sleep tongiht.
The street Mezger? Great engine (hydraulic valved btw). Certainly had it's issues though. Some serious. I've seen Mezgers that blew just going for ice cream. Seriously. What makes the Mezger superior to the .1 4.0? PAG didn't think it was superior clearly.
Has PAG improved their engines with each model and refresh or generation? Of course. No argument.
Whether that renders the others before it "inferior" (except you even think the .1 4.0 is inferior to the one before it too) is a bit of an over zealous statement and smear. Certainly not inferior for it's intended use or real world performance even with the huge 9000 rpm vs. 8800 rpm difference.
Fact, while the new engine has improvements...the .1 4.0 certainly not inferior based on expected life of use of the car or warranty or enjoyment or day to day performance. Did PAG extend the warranty on the .2 4.0? No. Don't think so. I guess they don't think its that much better.
.1RS produced in far greater numbers? So what is "far greater"? and tell us how many were produced please. I did the math based on data accumulated here, production capacities and its without question in my mind between 3000 and 3500 WW. If you want to buy the Wiki figures which likely just parrotted the nonsensical numbers just tossed around on this site go right ahead. Your free to do that. Please do.
You are actually using the Tiptronic for your support to debunk my position? Whoa. To silly/ridiculous to even respond to.
Since your crystal ball predicts that the .1RS values will be lowest RS values of them all which is certainly a possibiltiy...your crytal ball should also tell you a comprable .1RS with it's "inferior" engine will still be worth more than your comprable .2GT3.
Cheers. ; )
Cheers. ; )
Last edited by destaccado; 01-17-2018 at 09:06 PM.