Clear Bra Film vs. Ceramic Coating
10-13-2017, 11:05 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Speaking of that RS owner with a lot of track time, but a still spotless car, what brand of wrap do you recommend for maximal protection from track work?
I had Xpel put on my 2015 GT3, but after one day at chuckwalla (lots of sand and small rocks), my rear stone guards (Porsche ones replaced by xpel), were toast, with 6 or 7 full thickness cuts through the xpel.
I know xpel is the favorite choice on rennlist, but I wasn't to impressed by that, and wonder about your thoughts on the best brand option of a wrap for protection from stone chips?
I had Xpel put on my 2015 GT3, but after one day at chuckwalla (lots of sand and small rocks), my rear stone guards (Porsche ones replaced by xpel), were toast, with 6 or 7 full thickness cuts through the xpel.
I know xpel is the favorite choice on rennlist, but I wasn't to impressed by that, and wonder about your thoughts on the best brand option of a wrap for protection from stone chips?
Here's a pic of some of that very film I replaced when I saw the car 6 weeks prior. You can see how much of a beating it took and the PPF under it was perfect(OCD-much? Yeah, but this is what I would do to my own if I was fortunate enough to have a GT3) I took some high quality video of this replacement but like the other thousands of images and countless gigs of video that is waiting on me having some time to process, it waits. This was a mobile phone shot I snagged and just uploaded for this post.
The PPF market is an odd one right now(and the same with the coating market). There are a lot of great things happening but the politics are quite frankly getting horrible. I try my best to keep my attention focused on my vision and not let that stuff get to me too much.
My encouragement is to first find the most qualified to work on your car and support you after you've cut the check. With the right person they will go out of their way to ensure you're pleased. Even though I prefer Modesta, all other things being equal, I still tell everyone find the right professional and then go from there. The key piece will always be the professional/shop and then the refinement can happen from there.
My personal preference right now is Prestige Film Technology's Clear Guard Nano (shameless plug for a video where we show it off:
But the PPF industry is very dynamic right now and has been for about the last 4+ years. What I like this month may be different in 6 months. The advancements are incredible and everyone is benefiting. Things were easier in 2010 when you could pretty much only get 3M or Ventureshield(2012 saw 3M acquiring Ventureshield) and both looked rough when installed, royally sucked to install and was a nightmare to remove lol.....at least they performed and protected though. Those films laid the ground work for what we all have today.
Great question. I hope this helps a bit.
*edit*
Drifting, I just remembered making a graph that explains wear and tear/exposure/care/lifespan of PPF and wanted to link it. I think this graph illustrates how all of those aspects play into the expectations for PPF:
10-13-2017, 11:25 PM
#32
JC,
Get your men ready. I have a date to pick up my GT3 in Atlanta PEC in July 2018! Going straight to your shop when I pick it up
Get your men ready. I have a date to pick up my GT3 in Atlanta PEC in July 2018! Going straight to your shop when I pick it up
10-13-2017, 11:26 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
10-14-2017, 12:25 AM
#34
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
*They* thought it was perfect but I took away that they were speaking of the paint because I saw that car 6 weeks before it sold and the track did wear on the film to some measure. But I do not recall a single penetration of the film. We install thicker 20mil clear film over the PPF in some of the heaviest wear and tear areas(like around the fender lips and a few other spots) that can be torn away and replaced.
Here's a pic of some of that very film I replaced when I saw the car 6 weeks prior. You can see how much of a beating it took and the PPF under it was perfect(OCD-much? Yeah, but this is what I would do to my own if I was fortunate enough to have a GT3) I took some high quality video of this replacement but like the other thousands of images and countless gigs of video that is waiting on me having some time to process, it waits. This was a mobile phone shot I snagged and just uploaded for this post.
The PPF market is an odd one right now(and the same with the coating market). There are a lot of great things happening but the politics are quite frankly getting horrible. I try my best to keep my attention focused on my vision and not let that stuff get to me too much.
My encouragement is to first find the most qualified to work on your car and support you after you've cut the check. With the right person they will go out of their way to ensure you're pleased. Even though I prefer Modesta, all other things being equal, I still tell everyone find the right professional and then go from there. The key piece will always be the professional/shop and then the refinement can happen from there.
My personal preference right now is Prestige Film Technology's Clear Guard Nano (shameless plug for a video where we show it off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aea42wh3vP8) . In my opinion, it's the best all around solution. Though, it's not inexpensive at all. It's far more labor intensive to install and is the most expensive in terms of pure cost of material. Suntek's Ultra PPF is in second place. STEK North America is owned by someone in the industry I greatly admire and I will be testing their glossy film very soon. I can say about STEK that I do like their satin PPF (DYNOMAT) far more than Xpel's Stealth. STEK's satin PPF is the bee's knees for that look! (another shameless plug lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhw11zNLjc)
But the PPF industry is very dynamic right now and has been for about the last 4+ years. What I like this month may be different in 6 months. The advancements are incredible and everyone is benefiting. Things were easier in 2010 when you could pretty much only get 3M or Ventureshield(2012 saw 3M acquiring Ventureshield) and both looked rough when installed, royally sucked to install and was a nightmare to remove lol.....at least they performed and protected though. Those films laid the ground work for what we all have today.
Great question. I hope this helps a bit.
*edit*
Drifting, I just remembered making a graph that explains wear and tear/exposure/care/lifespan of PPF and wanted to link it. I think this graph illustrates how all of those aspects play into the expectations for PPF:
Here's a pic of some of that very film I replaced when I saw the car 6 weeks prior. You can see how much of a beating it took and the PPF under it was perfect(OCD-much? Yeah, but this is what I would do to my own if I was fortunate enough to have a GT3) I took some high quality video of this replacement but like the other thousands of images and countless gigs of video that is waiting on me having some time to process, it waits. This was a mobile phone shot I snagged and just uploaded for this post.
The PPF market is an odd one right now(and the same with the coating market). There are a lot of great things happening but the politics are quite frankly getting horrible. I try my best to keep my attention focused on my vision and not let that stuff get to me too much.
My encouragement is to first find the most qualified to work on your car and support you after you've cut the check. With the right person they will go out of their way to ensure you're pleased. Even though I prefer Modesta, all other things being equal, I still tell everyone find the right professional and then go from there. The key piece will always be the professional/shop and then the refinement can happen from there.
My personal preference right now is Prestige Film Technology's Clear Guard Nano (shameless plug for a video where we show it off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aea42wh3vP8) . In my opinion, it's the best all around solution. Though, it's not inexpensive at all. It's far more labor intensive to install and is the most expensive in terms of pure cost of material. Suntek's Ultra PPF is in second place. STEK North America is owned by someone in the industry I greatly admire and I will be testing their glossy film very soon. I can say about STEK that I do like their satin PPF (DYNOMAT) far more than Xpel's Stealth. STEK's satin PPF is the bee's knees for that look! (another shameless plug lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhw11zNLjc)
But the PPF industry is very dynamic right now and has been for about the last 4+ years. What I like this month may be different in 6 months. The advancements are incredible and everyone is benefiting. Things were easier in 2010 when you could pretty much only get 3M or Ventureshield(2012 saw 3M acquiring Ventureshield) and both looked rough when installed, royally sucked to install and was a nightmare to remove lol.....at least they performed and protected though. Those films laid the ground work for what we all have today.
Great question. I hope this helps a bit.
*edit*
Drifting, I just remembered making a graph that explains wear and tear/exposure/care/lifespan of PPF and wanted to link it. I think this graph illustrates how all of those aspects play into the expectations for PPF:
10-14-2017, 12:34 AM
#35
[QUOTE=Detailed Designs;14534898]While not very common, $3500 for just correction is not unheard of from us. We have gone over $7,000 for correction(though, it ended up consuming 130+ hours and from a business standpoint I should have passed lol) A $3500 correction price requires a few things though. A) an incredibly labor intensive project and B) an owner requesting 10/10(perfection). Because I do not give correction prices
For those reading that may not know what goes into a $3500 paint correction job. It takes us 40+ actual hours of labor and skill intensive work(It does not afford me a lavish lifestyle at all). And the sad reality for me is that formal paint correction jobs, literally never, take less time than I anticipate and price out. And yet, I have never called a client and changed a price. Once it is bid we honor it. The last 2 examples of this have been in the last few weeks. A brand new Model S was supposed to take about 18 hours and it took us 30+. 2 weeks ago we delivered a brand new Mclaren that we thought would take -20 hours and it took us 60+. As with every estimate, we honored them and cut zero corners. Because I know no paint correction job ever "goes fast" or is easy on the body or mind I proudly stand by every quote and never budge.
Well you did give me correction prices over the phone without seeing the car, and it seemed you enjoyed giving further price additions “if it was necessary “.
I’m sure you do good work, but If it takes you “60” hours to correct a small car like a Mclaren, then your spending 2 days on a panel which is a bad joke and bad business. I’m all about doing things right but you have an exaggerated style that ends up costing stupid $$$.
For those reading that may not know what goes into a $3500 paint correction job. It takes us 40+ actual hours of labor and skill intensive work(It does not afford me a lavish lifestyle at all). And the sad reality for me is that formal paint correction jobs, literally never, take less time than I anticipate and price out. And yet, I have never called a client and changed a price. Once it is bid we honor it. The last 2 examples of this have been in the last few weeks. A brand new Model S was supposed to take about 18 hours and it took us 30+. 2 weeks ago we delivered a brand new Mclaren that we thought would take -20 hours and it took us 60+. As with every estimate, we honored them and cut zero corners. Because I know no paint correction job ever "goes fast" or is easy on the body or mind I proudly stand by every quote and never budge.
Well you did give me correction prices over the phone without seeing the car, and it seemed you enjoyed giving further price additions “if it was necessary “.
I’m sure you do good work, but If it takes you “60” hours to correct a small car like a Mclaren, then your spending 2 days on a panel which is a bad joke and bad business. I’m all about doing things right but you have an exaggerated style that ends up costing stupid $$$.
10-14-2017, 02:08 AM
#36
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=Outlaw;14535112]
I do not give correction prices over the phone and I definitely would not give a $3500 PC price sight unseen as that would be to a very high end of what's not rare. If pressed over a phone call it's very possible I would tell someone it could be as much as $3500 after I already tried to explain that I can't give a set price but they still insist that "a range will do"(not uncommon despite my trying to kindly let everyone know it's not possible). But I have never told someone they had a $3500 PC job over a phone call, period. I have more examples of expressing we don't give paint correction prices sight unseen than I could possibly share...and my website clearly states "Factors that can increase the cost(of paint correction) are size of the vehicle, depth & amount of damage, amount of contaminants, amount of complex curves in the body panels & panel material." And for as many Porsche's as I and my staff have worked on, if anyone reading this has evidence to the contrary, please share it and if it's as simple as me giving our paint correction prices sight unseen with no other explanation, I will donate $500 to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation.
I always tell potential clients what our most basic prep work is for a new car/given service and express that it can go up from there based upon the condition and labor required for the expected results. We have many that come to us not requiring anything special or additional and we have had a number that required a TON of work. After 10 years in business I know better than to tie myself to a price for such a wildly varying factor as paint correction. Who calls a home builder and gets angry when they won't tell them how much it costs for "building them a house"? This is the same thing! The nuances dictate the consumption of time/resources/expertise/exposure and they vary so greatly there is literally no way to account for them over a phone call.
Outlaw, may I ask what you found your opinion on beyond your anecdotal experience? Because, with all due respect I have many thousands of hours of paint correction experience and you're not in a position to judge anything on a project you know absolutely nothing about. You've neither seen the condition the car was in, the end result nor do you understand what my client, who returned with this car after a similar service before, was requesting of us. I can explain how a "small car" can consume large sums of time to correct but what good is it? Likely, it would be denied. Feel free to come to Caffeine and Exotics this Sunday to examine my and my team's work firsthand on that Mclaren. This invitation is open to anyone reading this. Come to the show, examine our work up close, shake my hand/high-five me, ask me and my staff questions and then form your own opinion.
Viewing this post for what it is I could see how someone who doesn't know me could perceive that I am either hot or being nasty. That could not be further from the truth. Speaking in general, how can one take pride in their(and their team's) blood sweat and tears and not sound arrogant? I wish to do so while still expressing confidence that we give our paying clients our everything and we don't pass off mediocre work.
Outlaw, if you don't care for what we offer, what do you care and why is this a thing at all? For me it's a matter of my life's dedication being questioned publicly and my formal response. Do you have folks telling your employer/clients/patients how you're not worthy of what they decide to pay you? Anyone reading this would likely stand up for their ethics and the value they provide their clients if questioned.
I wish you the best but unless you care to view our work in-person and speak face to face about the matter, I can't spend more time debating our legitimacy online.
Good evening.
While not very common, $3500 for just correction is not unheard of from us. We have gone over $7,000 for correction(though, it ended up consuming 130+ hours and from a business standpoint I should have passed lol) A $3500 correction price requires a few things though. A) an incredibly labor intensive project and B) an owner requesting 10/10(perfection). Because I do not give correction prices
For those reading that may not know what goes into a $3500 paint correction job. It takes us 40+ actual hours of labor and skill intensive work(It does not afford me a lavish lifestyle at all). And the sad reality for me is that formal paint correction jobs, literally never, take less time than I anticipate and price out. And yet, I have never called a client and changed a price. Once it is bid we honor it. The last 2 examples of this have been in the last few weeks. A brand new Model S was supposed to take about 18 hours and it took us 30+. 2 weeks ago we delivered a brand new Mclaren that we thought would take -20 hours and it took us 60+. As with every estimate, we honored them and cut zero corners. Because I know no paint correction job ever "goes fast" or is easy on the body or mind I proudly stand by every quote and never budge.
Well you did give me correction prices over the phone without seeing the car, and it seemed you enjoyed giving further price additions “if it was necessary “.
I’m sure you do good work, but If it takes you “60” hours to correct a small car like a Mclaren, then your spending 2 days on a panel which is a bad joke and bad business. I’m all about doing things right but you have an exaggerated style that ends up costing stupid $$$.
For those reading that may not know what goes into a $3500 paint correction job. It takes us 40+ actual hours of labor and skill intensive work(It does not afford me a lavish lifestyle at all). And the sad reality for me is that formal paint correction jobs, literally never, take less time than I anticipate and price out. And yet, I have never called a client and changed a price. Once it is bid we honor it. The last 2 examples of this have been in the last few weeks. A brand new Model S was supposed to take about 18 hours and it took us 30+. 2 weeks ago we delivered a brand new Mclaren that we thought would take -20 hours and it took us 60+. As with every estimate, we honored them and cut zero corners. Because I know no paint correction job ever "goes fast" or is easy on the body or mind I proudly stand by every quote and never budge.
Well you did give me correction prices over the phone without seeing the car, and it seemed you enjoyed giving further price additions “if it was necessary “.
I’m sure you do good work, but If it takes you “60” hours to correct a small car like a Mclaren, then your spending 2 days on a panel which is a bad joke and bad business. I’m all about doing things right but you have an exaggerated style that ends up costing stupid $$$.
I always tell potential clients what our most basic prep work is for a new car/given service and express that it can go up from there based upon the condition and labor required for the expected results. We have many that come to us not requiring anything special or additional and we have had a number that required a TON of work. After 10 years in business I know better than to tie myself to a price for such a wildly varying factor as paint correction. Who calls a home builder and gets angry when they won't tell them how much it costs for "building them a house"? This is the same thing! The nuances dictate the consumption of time/resources/expertise/exposure and they vary so greatly there is literally no way to account for them over a phone call.
Outlaw, may I ask what you found your opinion on beyond your anecdotal experience? Because, with all due respect I have many thousands of hours of paint correction experience and you're not in a position to judge anything on a project you know absolutely nothing about. You've neither seen the condition the car was in, the end result nor do you understand what my client, who returned with this car after a similar service before, was requesting of us. I can explain how a "small car" can consume large sums of time to correct but what good is it? Likely, it would be denied. Feel free to come to Caffeine and Exotics this Sunday to examine my and my team's work firsthand on that Mclaren. This invitation is open to anyone reading this. Come to the show, examine our work up close, shake my hand/high-five me, ask me and my staff questions and then form your own opinion.
Viewing this post for what it is I could see how someone who doesn't know me could perceive that I am either hot or being nasty. That could not be further from the truth. Speaking in general, how can one take pride in their(and their team's) blood sweat and tears and not sound arrogant? I wish to do so while still expressing confidence that we give our paying clients our everything and we don't pass off mediocre work.
Outlaw, if you don't care for what we offer, what do you care and why is this a thing at all? For me it's a matter of my life's dedication being questioned publicly and my formal response. Do you have folks telling your employer/clients/patients how you're not worthy of what they decide to pay you? Anyone reading this would likely stand up for their ethics and the value they provide their clients if questioned.
I wish you the best but unless you care to view our work in-person and speak face to face about the matter, I can't spend more time debating our legitimacy online.
Good evening.
10-14-2017, 02:52 AM
#37
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
everyone's idea of PC is different. i had a brand new RS done at i recall $5000+ and a 1986 at $6000 iirc.
10-14-2017, 09:35 AM
#39
Drifting
If I had access to experts, such as DD above, it would be substantially easier to part with the $ for the work being completed...All the ppf installers local to me are incompetent and I refuse to pay top $ for amateur effort.
Also the massive amounts of orange peel I see from various ppf/wraps, is more difficult to bear than paint chips..
Ugh, tough choices...
Also the massive amounts of orange peel I see from various ppf/wraps, is more difficult to bear than paint chips..
Ugh, tough choices...
10-14-2017, 09:58 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
If you, like me, don’t feel the need to have your car look like it’s ready for Concours D’Elegance all the time and would be satisfied with a basic safe touchless wash and dry, then it’s probably money better spent elsewhere, since as we’ve all learned, you won’t get this money back on resale or trade.
Having said all that, I think probably the biggest bang for the buck is partial PPF (without the expense of paint correction before or ceramic pro coating after) on a new car on the most rock chip prone surfaces, which usually costs around $2K-$2500 and which both protects those areas most prone to damage and also makes those areas easier to safely clean of dead bugs, etc. that tend to accumulate on them.
Having said all that, I think probably the biggest bang for the buck is partial PPF (without the expense of paint correction before or ceramic pro coating after) on a new car on the most rock chip prone surfaces, which usually costs around $2K-$2500 and which both protects those areas most prone to damage and also makes those areas easier to safely clean of dead bugs, etc. that tend to accumulate on them.
In Colorado they use gravel on the roads for snowy days. As a result rocks chips are a regular part of owning a car. PPF is by far the best way to protect against chips around here. But I'm not OCD about having my car look like a rolling Concours vehicle so the paint correction seems a bit much. Plus I rather enjoy waxing my car a couple of times each year, it's therapeutic.
When I take delivery of my GT3 next month I plan on taking it home, using a clay bar and a very mild polish. Then I'm having the entire car covered in Suntek Ultra. This will be my first car that's completely covered, but for the extra money I figured it's worth it on a $170K car. After the wrap I'm planning on applying a nice carnauba wax myself.
Then drive the **** out of it.
10-14-2017, 10:43 AM
#41
Speaking of that RS owner with a lot of track time, but a still spotless car, what brand of wrap do you recommend for maximal protection from track work?
I had Xpel put on my 2015 GT3, but after one day at chuckwalla (lots of sand and small rocks), my rear stone guards (Porsche ones replaced by xpel), were toast, with 6 or 7 full thickness cuts through the xpel.
I know xpel is the favorite choice on rennlist, but I wasn't to impressed by that, and wonder about your thoughts on the best brand option of a wrap for protection from stone chips?
I had Xpel put on my 2015 GT3, but after one day at chuckwalla (lots of sand and small rocks), my rear stone guards (Porsche ones replaced by xpel), were toast, with 6 or 7 full thickness cuts through the xpel.
I know xpel is the favorite choice on rennlist, but I wasn't to impressed by that, and wonder about your thoughts on the best brand option of a wrap for protection from stone chips?
10-14-2017, 01:23 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
This^^^^
In Colorado they use gravel on the roads for snowy days. As a result rocks chips are a regular part of owning a car. PPF is by far the best way to protect against chips around here. But I'm not OCD about having my car look like a rolling Concours vehicle so the paint correction seems a bit much. Plus I rather enjoy waxing my car a couple of times each year, it's therapeutic.
When I take delivery of my GT3 next month I plan on taking it home, using a clay bar and a very mild polish. Then I'm having the entire car covered in Suntek Ultra. This will be my first car that's completely covered, but for the extra money I figured it's worth it on a $170K car. After the wrap I'm planning on applying a nice carnauba wax myself.
Then drive the **** out of it.
In Colorado they use gravel on the roads for snowy days. As a result rocks chips are a regular part of owning a car. PPF is by far the best way to protect against chips around here. But I'm not OCD about having my car look like a rolling Concours vehicle so the paint correction seems a bit much. Plus I rather enjoy waxing my car a couple of times each year, it's therapeutic.
When I take delivery of my GT3 next month I plan on taking it home, using a clay bar and a very mild polish. Then I'm having the entire car covered in Suntek Ultra. This will be my first car that's completely covered, but for the extra money I figured it's worth it on a $170K car. After the wrap I'm planning on applying a nice carnauba wax myself.
Then drive the **** out of it.
10-14-2017, 02:15 PM
#43
I found this thread very informative -- props to DetailedDesigns for contributing to it!
10-14-2017, 02:38 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
Try to source a wax that doesn't have dyes. For bang for the buck and application experience, try p21s 100% carnauba(it's not really 100% nuba but that's what they call it). Laying a good sealant first will also make your wax application much easier as PPF tends to be more porous and grabby unless it's a film with a nano-infused topcoat.
Any thoughts on a mild polish to use prior to dropping my car off for the PPF installation? It needs to be something that can be applied by hand as I don't want to learn to use an orbital on my GT3. Also I'm assuming it shouldn't be something that uses a sealant to hide swirl marks as the sealant will be removed when the shop preps the car with alcohol.
10-14-2017, 02:41 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Awesome! Thanks for the recommendation.
Any thoughts on a mild polish to use prior to dropping my car off for the PPF installation? It needs to be something that can be applied by hand as I don't want to learn to use an orbital on my GT3. Also I'm assuming it shouldn't be something that uses a sealant to hide swirl marks as the sealant will be removed when the shop preps the car with alcohol.
Any thoughts on a mild polish to use prior to dropping my car off for the PPF installation? It needs to be something that can be applied by hand as I don't want to learn to use an orbital on my GT3. Also I'm assuming it shouldn't be something that uses a sealant to hide swirl marks as the sealant will be removed when the shop preps the car with alcohol.