ipse dixit

You don't to work in LA. Obviously.

Mike Murphy

Touché

Palting

All good points, all great opinions. I'll share mine.

The question asked was whether the non-Club optioned GT3 was more dangerous on the track. My track toy is a C4S. It has been modded quite a bit, to include a "half roll cage", 6 point harness and GT3 buckets. Essentially the "Club Sport Option". I push it hard at the track during DE, but I do't believe I push it as hard as someone during an actual race would. Neither do the other people I run with in the black group. Most of them, anyway. I would rather lose time than push for a bit more speed. So, I don't believe I really needed all that. For my GT3.2 incoming, I will stay with the bucket seats, 3 point standard seat belts, airbags, and whatever structural roll protection comes with the car, and stick to DE, and have fun. Unless I start going crazy and think I'm in an actual race, IMO that should be good enough

batmanm3

I was at a recent BMW event and the instructors were saying that in Europe, manufacturers like BMW, Mercedes and Porsche were starting to mandate NO helmets in manufacturers events and relying on airbags and 3 pt belts as the safety system as they felt regular helmets ( non-carbon) were too heavy and resulted in more injury, particularly if used without a neck restraint. Also thumbs up for windows up and using signals...

Has anyone experienced or heard of this?

For the record, I have half cage, 6 point, hans, carbon helmet, nomex...

Just wondering if the above is catering to a more introductory level of DE as opposed to advanced group guys running hard...

C.J. Ichiban

Yeah motorcycle guys complain about helmets all the time.

I have crashed on track in a few different cars. Twice my fault and the other times not my fault. Each time I had a HANS device. I have seen some guys crash and spin or spin and cause a crash on pit out (COTA this march) and feel like everyone at a DE is one mistake from a totaled car.

I'm willing to crash my race cars in pursuit of speed, and drove hard or too hard plenty of times. I never risk it in t shirt or shorts.

They make cool suits for your "non athletic" guys which I agree- heat exhausted Driver's crash more.

You only get one chance to escape a burning wreck. If you hit hard enough your car will flip or catch on fire. Wear the good stuff guys.

Kobalt

Havn't heard of it but might make sense.

The only problem is that you want the 6-pts to let you focus on your driving.
With put 6-pts I find it a bit difficult/dangerous to drive fast since I must stay in the seat using all my limbs.


Somehow this discussion ends up with: Depending on how you plan to crash: Choose the appropriate safety configuration.

levd

Yes, it was actually my initial question.

When you crash hard on track, what configuration gives you more chance to avoid death or hard injuries.

Mike Murphy

I often wonder why we don't use signals instead of throwing the arm out the window for passing.

Kobalt

Secure Foam is the answer


Product demonstration:

randr

Method 1
(a) windows up
(b) use indicators
(c) two layer FIA approved suit, gloves, boots, balaclava, undershirt, pants, socks
(d) light weight helmet
(e) three way plus airbags
(f) extinguisher 2kg
(g) for club level sprints (not W2W)

Method 2
(a) windows up
(b) side window mesh catch
(c) indicators
(d) full cage - FIA
(e) six point harness and light weight helmet
(f) triple layer FIA approved, light weight suit, gloves boots, socks, undershirt, socks
(g) buckets
(h) full HANS or equivalent
(I) extinguisher system
(J) for W2W and above club level, targa events etc

I have never been hit, missed a few by fine margins, hit walls twice - never underestimate the disorientation of an off - side impacts are very bad, diamonding e.g. spinning along a wall = very bad, a great triple layer suit and fire proof under gear may protect you for 10 to 20 seconds max.

One hit, caused me to loose feel on left side, couldn't hit the extinguisher button, struggled with one hand to undo harness, got out of window and was dragged away by marshalls. Do not underestimate the track. Uncontrolled DE days - very common - are the most dangerous in many respects.

Manifold

The data isn't there to readily quantify the risks associated with different safety systems in street cars which are tracked, so it's largely a matter of judgment, and opinions do vary.

IMO, in a 991 GT3 which is tracked often, best to go with roll bar + proper seats (the Porsche buckets are fine) + 6-pt harnesses + quality helmet + HANS. The costs involved with these measures are minor, and the car can still be used on the street with no real issues.

Fire extinguisher in the car could help too, but the priority is to get the hell out of the car if it's on fire. Fire is very rare with modern street cars that don't have mods which could increase the risk of fire, so I don't wear a race suit.

A possible upgrade is seats which have halos to provide added head/neck protection for a side impact; the Sparco Ergo seat has halos which are removable for street use. I feel a bit exposed due to not having halos, but I figure/hope that the side airbags mitigate much of the risk.

http://www.sparcousa.com/product/ergo

I've tracked the car in factory form with 3-pt belts, but that's not something I'd be comfortable doing on a regular basis. Even if you drive conservatively and maintain your car well, you could crash at high speed due to encountering fluid dumped by another car.

But certainly do everything you can to minimize the chance of a crash due to driver error, at a given pace, by developing good situational awareness (including awareness of your physical and mental state), developing good car control, learning how to safely fix errors while keeping the car on track, studying runoff areas and understanding the risk profile of the track, recognizing when it's better to drive it off rather than trying to stay on track, and mentally rehearsing how to control the car when driving it off track.

trader247

Well, the factory drivers in the production cars per this example are; full nomex suit, helmet, hans, half bar, six point and race seat.

qbix

deleted

MaxLTV

Well, and then there is this:


Same driver, 3 point belt and short sleeved t-shirt...

Of course, he can go faster in a more supportive seat with full harness, so we don't really know if that's done for safety or for speed.

Unfortunately, these safety discussions have very little real data. We know that full-on race cars are rather safe - we have seen drivers walk away from huge crashes. We know that new street cars are rather safe too even with unhelmeted drivers - the cars are thoroughly tested and people sometimes walk away from crashes that are even worse than at tracks (tracks are safer than public roads).

But in-between set ups are guesswork and borderline superstition.

For example, we all "know" that 6-point without HANS is bad because the body is more fixed, so head bouncing forward is more likely to cause a basal skull fracture with a 6-point. But we do not know that's really the case because even 3-point seatbelts stop the body from moving forward fully, so create the same total deceleration, but it happens even later in the trajectory when the speed difference between head and car is MUCH larger. It's like falling on the seatbelt, that than stops you rather than being in contact with the seatbelt all along. So this slack in 3-points that supposedly makes them not need HANS is not actually a good thing, and many cars come with very strong seat belt pre-tensioners to get closer to the effect of being fully strapped in and relatively less mobile.

Yes, racecar drivers were frequently getting basilar skull fractures before HANS but so were regular drivers with 3 point belts before airbags. So, how does the front airbag factor into this? It's designed to stop the head from moving forward before the neck and base of the skull are stressed. So could it perform the same function as HANS? We don't fully know.

Similarly, with roll bars. Consider this - 911 b-pillars are designed to hold over 5x weight of the car on each side. In fact, in the roof crash test where a load is placed on one B-pillar at an angle to simulate the worst case scenario, most modern sports cars can hold 5-7 weights of the car before giving in more than 1 foot. That's off-set load focused on just one b-pillar. Falling down on both b-pillars then would keep 10-15G+ of a load before caving in much; and having the load spread on more pillars like in a real-life roll would allow the roof to survive even a stronger hit. Which is getting really close to the downward acceleration that's traumatic/deadly anyway (the upside down deceleration is by far the most damaging to the human brain and neck, with just 3Gs causing a red-out condition).

If you have seen a 991 b-pillar cut across, it's so thick that most aftermarket roll bars look like cocktail straws compared to it (of course, full cages are also reinforced with multiple cross-bars). So what are the chances of having a roof hit exactly in the extremely narrow window of G-load (assuming such a window exists at all) where the G-forces are sufficient to fully cave in the roof but insufficient to kill the humans inside anyway? Probably very unlikely, just because this window is so narrow. The situations, where the added strength of a typical wimpy roll bar would have played a role (no pun intended), are an even smaller subset of that. These are not the cars from 15+ years ago when roofs easily caved in.

But these are just musings, not really facts - I don't have facts, and neither do others because all these half-baked systems were never fully tested.

This post is only to provoke some thought and critique some potentially incorrect blanket statements. I'm NOT suggesting ditching any safety equipment. In fact, I'm driving with a full halo seat, 6-point, HANS, and a roll bar, and I want to move to a fully caged car, ideally factory-built.

gago1101

I'm an idiot... Please educate me, but my understanding is that a Hans device is likely the most important safety thing one needs on a track. The few fatalities I've heard about, could have potentially been prevented by the Hans device. I do not have it, but seriously considering to get one.