991 GT3 - just a sportier Carrera?
06-04-2013, 05:29 PM
#46
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I find it challenging to compare what attributes have carried over generation to generation, in a specific line of cars, to suggest whether the car is 'real' or not... Using this theory, if the list of original attributes of the first GT'X' car was listed, I bet there are only 1 or 2 that still exist... Cars evolve, and for the most part, improve over time. Each generation has changes which some like and some do not like, but typically are changes for the better. By the time a next-gen GT3 is coming out in 4 or 5 years, that car will be compared to this, and there will be many complaints about X and Y not being included, but I will guess it will be faster and better as a package.
I did not own a 997.2 GT3, but always loved them. I do not currently own a 991 GT3, but will strongly consider it in a year or two (2012 CS manual). For those who will be replacing their 997.2 GT3 in the next year or so, and can't afford the GT3 RS, what will you buy as an alternative? What other race-bred, manual sports car exists in the 100-150k range?
Finally, and I do not know the answer, what percentage of 997.2 GT3 owners track their car? and I don't mean a 1 off random thing, but actually do a few times a year? Now, what % of GT3 RS owners really track their car? I would suspect the GT3 number is rather low, and will be very similar for the 991 car.. I also suspect the rate is higher for the RS, and will be similar with the 991 car, and would suspect the 991 RS will but a big step beyond a current GT3 for the real enthusiasts who really push their cars.
I did not own a 997.2 GT3, but always loved them. I do not currently own a 991 GT3, but will strongly consider it in a year or two (2012 CS manual). For those who will be replacing their 997.2 GT3 in the next year or so, and can't afford the GT3 RS, what will you buy as an alternative? What other race-bred, manual sports car exists in the 100-150k range?
Finally, and I do not know the answer, what percentage of 997.2 GT3 owners track their car? and I don't mean a 1 off random thing, but actually do a few times a year? Now, what % of GT3 RS owners really track their car? I would suspect the GT3 number is rather low, and will be very similar for the 991 car.. I also suspect the rate is higher for the RS, and will be similar with the 991 car, and would suspect the 991 RS will but a big step beyond a current GT3 for the real enthusiasts who really push their cars.
06-04-2013, 09:54 PM
#47
Finally, and I do not know the answer, what percentage of 997.2 GT3 owners track their car? and I don't mean a 1 off random thing, but actually do a few times a year? Now, what % of GT3 RS owners really track their car? I would suspect the GT3 number is rather low, and will be very similar for the 991 car.. I also suspect the rate is higher for the RS, and will be similar with the 991 car, and would suspect the 991 RS will but a big step beyond a current GT3 for the real enthusiasts who really push their cars.
"What other race-bred, manual sports car exists in the 100-150k range?"
"what will you buy as an alternative?"
I find it challenging to compare what attributes have carried over generation to generation, in a specific line of cars, to suggest whether the car is 'real' or not...
06-04-2013, 10:34 PM
#48
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Thread Starter
I do not understand this logic (or whatever it is). I am new to Porsche, and I like both 991 and the new GT3, based on my experience with 991. ....
So it seems like a great car. Now comes GT3, with MUCH more power, MUCH better looks, better brakes, better suspension, better version of PDK, better sound, real dry sump, big tank, and all other track goodies for a price of well- optioned Carrera S. Why is it a failure?
....
So it's a great car with not that many flaws. That's an opinion of someone who has no reason to be a fanboy of anything
So it seems like a great car. Now comes GT3, with MUCH more power, MUCH better looks, better brakes, better suspension, better version of PDK, better sound, real dry sump, big tank, and all other track goodies for a price of well- optioned Carrera S. Why is it a failure?
....
So it's a great car with not that many flaws. That's an opinion of someone who has no reason to be a fanboy of anything
However, as someone else said, it's not a failure, but it is NOT a GT3. GT3 was never the fastest 911, it was however the most raw experience, the lightest, the closest to Cup Car, and a dream for any track junkies to just play around with alignment, track tires, and swapping cup car components to build an amazing track car. It also was relatively easy to maintain/repair and even rebuild, and it was very tunable, to dial-in understeer, oversteer, setup for different tracks, etc...
Those are all gone! Is it a better 991? Yes! It is a faster, sportier, better suspension and better brakes Carrera, is it a better GT3? or actually can be called a GT3? Based on what's on paper, I'd say no.
06-04-2013, 10:38 PM
#50
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Thread Starter
I'm sure the 991 GT3 will be an amazing car. I'm sure Porsche will sell all they make.
However, up until now, all of the 14,000+ GT3's ever made had a race-derived engine, a manual transmission, and the best steering on the planet.
The new car does not have a race-derived or race-proven engine. It is not available with a manual. It has electric steering. Therefore, it differs significantly from the roots and history of the GT3. And that's before the unproven RWS is considered. Before the 20" bling wheels or unproven centerlocks are mentioned.
With all that taken into account, it's no wonder the car is a huge unknown. It will certainly be a great car. Whether or not it's a great GT3 still needs to be proven.
I think AP himself said it best 'Don't worry: the new car is a brilliant daily driver, but with an even more sporting edge. . .' (Apr '13 CAR magazine) Notice how 'daily driver' is mentioned first. It's a street car first. Remember that and all will make sense.
Like many here, I'm on 'a list' for one. Still not sure if I'll actually buy one or not. Only time will tell.
However, up until now, all of the 14,000+ GT3's ever made had a race-derived engine, a manual transmission, and the best steering on the planet.
The new car does not have a race-derived or race-proven engine. It is not available with a manual. It has electric steering. Therefore, it differs significantly from the roots and history of the GT3. And that's before the unproven RWS is considered. Before the 20" bling wheels or unproven centerlocks are mentioned.
With all that taken into account, it's no wonder the car is a huge unknown. It will certainly be a great car. Whether or not it's a great GT3 still needs to be proven.
I think AP himself said it best 'Don't worry: the new car is a brilliant daily driver, but with an even more sporting edge. . .' (Apr '13 CAR magazine) Notice how 'daily driver' is mentioned first. It's a street car first. Remember that and all will make sense.
Like many here, I'm on 'a list' for one. Still not sure if I'll actually buy one or not. Only time will tell.
06-04-2013, 10:44 PM
#51
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Thread Starter
it is just a logical reaction from a factory to a simple fact that CEO wives do not need a de-tuned cup car, they need a 'porch' on 20" blings.
be realistic - it is a car for a wealthy now, percentage of drivers who buy those cars with a sole intend to beat them to near death on a track is minimal and not really a decision making factor from a production standpoint. ad I do not see it as a big deal neither. it is just a logical conclusion of an attempt to have a fun vehicle that was street legal and drivable to the track and back. so what? so time will come to buy a proper race car, 997 or 996 used cup, get a trailer and tow it around. life changes, as anything else and it is one of those changes. no big deal.
it also looks like this new gt3 will be quite good car for street driving, especially in heavy traffic, at 20-30 miles per hour in average and all new enhancements will come very handy to make this experience a total blast.
be realistic - it is a car for a wealthy now, percentage of drivers who buy those cars with a sole intend to beat them to near death on a track is minimal and not really a decision making factor from a production standpoint. ad I do not see it as a big deal neither. it is just a logical conclusion of an attempt to have a fun vehicle that was street legal and drivable to the track and back. so what? so time will come to buy a proper race car, 997 or 996 used cup, get a trailer and tow it around. life changes, as anything else and it is one of those changes. no big deal.
it also looks like this new gt3 will be quite good car for street driving, especially in heavy traffic, at 20-30 miles per hour in average and all new enhancements will come very handy to make this experience a total blast.
Overall, the 991 has been designed to appeal to more buyers, so the whole line has been dumbed down across the ranges.
06-04-2013, 10:45 PM
#52
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Thread Starter
Answering your title... YES!!!
The 996 GT cars represented what a true GT3 should be albeit a little tooo harsh for the street... with the 997, they stayed with the formula but made it easier to live with, thus a compromise on the original to broaden appeal and they found a good balance... the 991 has become a soft **** of a car, no longer interested in appealing to enthusiasts.
As has been mentioned many a times, the GT cars have always been cup cars, de-tuned and with an interior and enough modification to be street legal... Same engine, same trans (although modded to sequential in 997 cup), many many shared suspension parts. Not so any longer
The 996 GT cars represented what a true GT3 should be albeit a little tooo harsh for the street... with the 997, they stayed with the formula but made it easier to live with, thus a compromise on the original to broaden appeal and they found a good balance... the 991 has become a soft **** of a car, no longer interested in appealing to enthusiasts.
As has been mentioned many a times, the GT cars have always been cup cars, de-tuned and with an interior and enough modification to be street legal... Same engine, same trans (although modded to sequential in 997 cup), many many shared suspension parts. Not so any longer
06-05-2013, 05:53 PM
#53
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Here's the deal, it's a better car and faster, yes (there are some debates on track performance, will be proven soon).
However, as someone else said, it's not a failure, but it is NOT a GT3. GT3 was never the fastest 911, it was however the most raw experience, the lightest, the closest to Cup Car, and a dream for any track junkies to just play around with alignment, track tires, and swapping cup car components to build an amazing track car. It also was relatively easy to maintain/repair and even rebuild, and it was very tunable, to dial-in understeer, oversteer, setup for different tracks, etc...
Those are all gone! Is it a better 991? Yes! It is a faster, sportier, better suspension and better brakes Carrera, is it a better GT3? or actually can be called a GT3? Based on what's on paper, I'd say no.
However, as someone else said, it's not a failure, but it is NOT a GT3. GT3 was never the fastest 911, it was however the most raw experience, the lightest, the closest to Cup Car, and a dream for any track junkies to just play around with alignment, track tires, and swapping cup car components to build an amazing track car. It also was relatively easy to maintain/repair and even rebuild, and it was very tunable, to dial-in understeer, oversteer, setup for different tracks, etc...
Those are all gone! Is it a better 991? Yes! It is a faster, sportier, better suspension and better brakes Carrera, is it a better GT3? or actually can be called a GT3? Based on what's on paper, I'd say no.
06-05-2013, 08:07 PM
#54
06-06-2013, 04:01 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
If the GT3 has lost it's motorsport lineage, maybe it is time for some migration to the Cayman. It offers a lighter package, with possibly the same limitations as the 991 GT3 (regarding limited adjustment for alignment, track tires, and swapping cup car components).
If the GT3 was never the fastest Porsche, and that was ok, maybe the Cayman can get the same hall pass.
Just a thought.
If the GT3 was never the fastest Porsche, and that was ok, maybe the Cayman can get the same hall pass.
Just a thought.
06-06-2013, 04:54 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
cayman is fun if you drop in re-tuned GTS motor into it but with all that work in mind it becomes $100k+ build project that defeats the purpose of dealing with cayman to begin with.
06-06-2013, 04:58 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
The Cayman (and Boxster) lineup will very soon be turbo-4s. This will allow overlap in power with the 911 range while still being 'below' it.
06-06-2013, 05:56 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
I will propose the following possible explanation for why the new GT3 is not currently based on the 991 GT3 Cup/RSR cars:
If my memory serves me correctly, The current Metzger engine is FIA holomagated until 2015.
If we were to assume or as AP has insinuated, the New 9A1 GT3 engine will be in motorsports in the near future (i.e. in the Cup Car), this gives Porsche another year to develop/test this engine further before putting it in the race car.
Also Keep in mind that is order for them to get the new engine/car holomagated, they are also required to produce a certain amount of street cars (again from memory) in order to do this, which would explain why there is currently no link to the cup car. The street cars have to be produced first since this is an all new engine as compared to the Metzger which was first holomagated in the GT1 then the block later used for the GT3 cars...
I speculate (as everyone here is currently doing) that come 2014/2015, the Cup car will be using the New 9A1 GT3 motor as a base thereby establishing the motorsport link for the new GT3 and it's RS variant...
The New GT3 is a real GT3
Flame away !!!
If my memory serves me correctly, The current Metzger engine is FIA holomagated until 2015.
If we were to assume or as AP has insinuated, the New 9A1 GT3 engine will be in motorsports in the near future (i.e. in the Cup Car), this gives Porsche another year to develop/test this engine further before putting it in the race car.
Also Keep in mind that is order for them to get the new engine/car holomagated, they are also required to produce a certain amount of street cars (again from memory) in order to do this, which would explain why there is currently no link to the cup car. The street cars have to be produced first since this is an all new engine as compared to the Metzger which was first holomagated in the GT1 then the block later used for the GT3 cars...
I speculate (as everyone here is currently doing) that come 2014/2015, the Cup car will be using the New 9A1 GT3 motor as a base thereby establishing the motorsport link for the new GT3 and it's RS variant...
The New GT3 is a real GT3
Flame away !!!
06-06-2013, 06:30 PM
#59
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I will propose the following possible explanation for why the new GT3 is not currently based on the 991 GT3 Cup/RSR cars:
If my memory serves me correctly, The current Metzger engine is FIA holomagated until 2015.
If we were to assume or as AP has insinuated, the New 9A1 GT3 engine will be in motorsports in the near future (i.e. in the Cup Car), this gives Porsche another year to develop/test this engine further before putting it in the race car.
Also Keep in mind that is order for them to get the new engine/car holomagated, they are also required to produce a certain amount of street cars (again from memory) in order to do this, which would explain why there is currently no link to the cup car. The street cars have to be produced first since this is an all new engine as compared to the Metzger which was first holomagated in the GT1 then the block later used for the GT3 cars...
I speculate (as everyone here is currently doing) that come 2014/2015, the Cup car will be using the New 9A1 GT3 motor as a base thereby establishing the motorsport link for the new GT3 and it's RS variant...
The New GT3 is a real GT3
Flame away !!!
If my memory serves me correctly, The current Metzger engine is FIA holomagated until 2015.
If we were to assume or as AP has insinuated, the New 9A1 GT3 engine will be in motorsports in the near future (i.e. in the Cup Car), this gives Porsche another year to develop/test this engine further before putting it in the race car.
Also Keep in mind that is order for them to get the new engine/car holomagated, they are also required to produce a certain amount of street cars (again from memory) in order to do this, which would explain why there is currently no link to the cup car. The street cars have to be produced first since this is an all new engine as compared to the Metzger which was first holomagated in the GT1 then the block later used for the GT3 cars...
I speculate (as everyone here is currently doing) that come 2014/2015, the Cup car will be using the New 9A1 GT3 motor as a base thereby establishing the motorsport link for the new GT3 and it's RS variant...
The New GT3 is a real GT3
Flame away !!!
Only time will tell..and until there is no final answer to that question - no sale of a 991 Gt3 to me. What worries me, if your way of thinking is correct, Porsche would have confirmed this already..to avoid all this speculation and uncertainty..but they havent done it..why?
06-06-2013, 06:30 PM
#60
I will propose the following possible explanation for why the new GT3 is not currently based on the 991 GT3 Cup/RSR cars:
If my memory serves me correctly, The current Metzger engine is FIA holomagated until 2015.
If we were to assume or as AP has insinuated, the New 9A1 GT3 engine will be in motorsports in the near future (i.e. in the Cup Car), this gives Porsche another year to develop/test this engine further before putting it in the race car.
Also Keep in mind that is order for them to get the new engine/car holomagated, they are also required to produce a certain amount of street cars (again from memory) in order to do this, which would explain why there is currently no link to the cup car. The street cars have to be produced first since this is an all new engine as compared to the Metzger which was first holomagated in the GT1 then the block later used for the GT3 cars...
I speculate (as everyone here is currently doing) that come 2014/2015, the Cup car will be using the New 9A1 GT3 motor as a base thereby establishing the motorsport link for the new GT3 and it's RS variant...
The New GT3 is a real GT3
Flame away !!!
If my memory serves me correctly, The current Metzger engine is FIA holomagated until 2015.
If we were to assume or as AP has insinuated, the New 9A1 GT3 engine will be in motorsports in the near future (i.e. in the Cup Car), this gives Porsche another year to develop/test this engine further before putting it in the race car.
Also Keep in mind that is order for them to get the new engine/car holomagated, they are also required to produce a certain amount of street cars (again from memory) in order to do this, which would explain why there is currently no link to the cup car. The street cars have to be produced first since this is an all new engine as compared to the Metzger which was first holomagated in the GT1 then the block later used for the GT3 cars...
I speculate (as everyone here is currently doing) that come 2014/2015, the Cup car will be using the New 9A1 GT3 motor as a base thereby establishing the motorsport link for the new GT3 and it's RS variant...
The New GT3 is a real GT3
Flame away !!!
Actually, I feel the new gt3 is nothing more than a tuned VW Beetle not even on par with a base carrera; for real, real.