Ray S

Interesting thread. I totally disagree with P-Car's comments.

I have been tracking my 986 for 4 years and I've only needed to replace wear items (tires, pads, rotors, oil, etc.) in the process. The new cars are very capable of handling track use.

Don't feed the "Moldy Figs" and eventually they will go away....or better still just pass them.

FormulaRX

Well another car I drove just for ****s and giggles is the brand new MX-5 (miata) with the 2.0L and 6-spd but I don't plan on buying the car. It is a lot of fun for the price...only 25K or so and performs rather well. Anyway, yeah I should test the Z4 in both the 2.5 and 3.0L just for the hell of it although I'm not too keen on the looks. The Audi TT as I mentioned before is out because it has to much turbo lag although the engine is quite torquey once it gets on the boost, but I want a rear wheel drive sports roadster so the TT with the Quattro AWD system is a no for me. At the top of my list right now is the Honda S2K seriously! However, I like the older 2.0L models with the 9K rpm redline more than the new 2.2L and 8K rpm but I will buy new if I buy it because the 2.2L car is a little more toned down now for everyday driving (although still not as comfy as the Boxster). So it's between the S2K now and then we'll see how the Boxster S is after the test drive. Leaning more toward the S2k as a track car because the Boxster S costs almost twice as much as the Honda and for me I am not that comfortable tracking (abusing???) a car that costs that much at its limits. I'll have no problems driving it around town but I probably won't have the willingness to track it as much or as hard as if I were to buy a car of somewhat similar performance costing much less. I know I know I'm a wimp that needs a beating...

Ray S

An S2000....???



Just Kidding....the S2000 is a great car for the money. I agree that an earlier AP1 is probably a better bet, but beware the handling is twitchy compared to the Boxster. Additionally, you may find the need to upgrade the S2k's brakes for track work. An owner I met at a DE told me he needed to upgrade the stock single piston calipers as they were prone to fade.

FormulaRX

I'm not sold on the S2K just yet...it's just a thought for now. I might end up not getting it but I do realize that some performance mods need to be done before it is deemed track ready, especially the brakes and tires.

pcar964

I'm glad you've been trouble-free with your Boxster. Our S was NOT capable of withstanding track use. As far as your other comment, if you're ever down at Sebring... easy to find, I'm in the #05 stock (and trouble-free) black 993

pcar964

Your "humble opinion" is wrong - last time I checked, I AM a person, and I DID TAKE plenty of time "getting to know" the Boxster.

I respected its strengths, but overall I'm not impressed. IF the car was built to a standard reminiscent of the earlier cars, and IF the drivetrain was overbuilt like a Porsche should be, and IF the suspension could handle high-speed encounters with gator-tails without coming out of spec in one track session, maybe I would feel differently about the cars...

But the Boxster "is what it is," and that is NONE of the things listed above. The chassis is brilliant as a concept, but poorly executed... or more accurately, executed "well enough" for most Boxster buyers, (street-only drivers, be they businessmen, bored soccer moms, whatever...)

Otherwise, I might be driving one right now...

pcar964

Perhaps you misunderstood, because I am fully aware of what a Boxster is capable of. I was very impressed with its capabilities at Sebring. But I couldn't trust the car to be reliable for repeated track use, that was the problem.

FormulaRX

pcar, how often and how hard do you track your 993? Do you do mild tracking or drive it to its asbolute limit (ie redline every gear, heel-toe shift, hard on brakes, tire squeeling, etc.) I know the earlier aircooled porsches are pretty tough and can withstand some serious driving, but even with overbuilt german engineering on its side, I would still think that a car no matter how good it is made, can still break with repeated track use since it is probably the toughest condition the car will ever see. I just can't imagine beating the **** out of a car on the track repeated number of times and then driving it around town with no expected problems the other half of the time. Surely you do much more maintanence and care than a normally driven 993 would see right? Or are these cars really overbuilt (in which case I would be even more enthusiastic to purchase one)???

pcar964

I push the car about as far as it goes. It's a stock 95 993 with over 80k miles, and on street tires at sebring, I'm turning laps ~ mid/upper 2:30s. In yellow group (advanced solo), I'm faster than many GT3s, 360s, Vipers, TTs, you name it. I do push the car extremely hard, to the point where it's probably not smart to be out there without rollbar and harnesses. I track the car as often as I can, so far about 12 track events since I bought it less than a year ago, many of them 2-day events.

To give you an idea how confident I am in the hardware, I stretched my budget VERY thin to even purchase the car, and a major mechanical problem would be difficult for me to afford (I'm 24, just finishing grad school). That said, I have no hesitation running on the limit at the track, even in 95 degree Florida weather.

As far as maintenance, the car doesn't require any more maintenance than a street driven 993, except brakes and tires... I've owned many older Porsches, and as long as you do preventative maintenance religiously, they're almost worry-free I've literally driven to school and work with the front end taped and numbers on the side fresh from Sunday's track event, my Pcars have always been part-time daily drivers, and I've had few problems with ANY of them, including my current 993.

My only complaint with the 993 is, it's very forgiving at the limit (for a 911) which makes it less challenging (aka fun) to drive than, say, an old 911 (or especially a 930) - however, it's worth the compromise to have a comfortable street car with decent a/c! And it's still an absolute BLAST at the track... In my opinion, it's the perfect beginner's trackday 911. And as your skill (or budget, in my case ) allows, you can modify the car to be EVERY BIT as involving as the old 911s!!

Of course, that's only my personal opinion... some don't like the 911's handling and prefer 951/boxster because they're more evenly balanced. Me, I'm happiest with trail-braking-induced oversteer through turn 1 at Sebring

Palting

RayS,

There's something different about your 986. I note the side skirts, but can't quite figure out what makes the car look different. Rear wheel wells look wider but the tires seem to fill it out more. Is it just the angle of the shot, or do you have wider fenders/bigger wheels?

Ray S

Greg (Pcar), your views on "new" Porsche's are well known......you have an intense dislike for them to say the least. Previous statements such as;

"Of course this is just the latest example of the company abandoning its racing heritage to the sell-out, poseur-crowd - and I'm talking about everything since the 996/boxster were introduced. And for any of you who think "Porsche is still great because they make the GT3," give me a break. Yeah it's a great car, but as they continue to realize their profits are driven by selling out to the cappucino market, expect the GT3 to become even more rare and expensive, until it's just an illusion (like the Carrera GT) the company will use to fool its consumers into thinking their "cayman" or "boxster" or "911" is actually special.

Might as well hang it up, it's over - it was nice while it lasted. Enjoy your real 911s guys, because we'll never see anything like them again... It's funny, but thinking back the only thing that could have SAVED Porsche as we know it, is if they were bought out by Daimler or Volkswagen in the 1990s- at least then (like Ferrari under Fiat), they could have continued along the path that made them who they were. Instead, now they use their history as a crutch while they build overpriced "sporty cars" that are no more trackworthy than a common japanese import...

The purpose of this rant is not to affect change... in my opinion they are way past the point of no return. And I'm not putting the blame only on the company, after all they're just giving the consumer what they want. I just wish those damn poseurs could have destroyed some other marque with their ignorance. Yes I said ignorance - becuase only ignorance on the part of the "new Porshh" buyer would allow an $80k-plus price tag for a wet sump, disposable "911."

Sad times."

OR

"Oh and PS - if anyone is thinking about "rebutting" me with statements like "boxsters are great sportscars" or "997s are faster than 993s," save your breath... Between myeslf and some good friends of mine, we have been witness to numerous track nightmares with these supposed sportscars, they have all either fallen apart or had major engine failures on the track, period - they're trash. If anyone has driven one on the track more than once without something breaking, you're either extremely lucky, or you're driving like a schoolgirl."

OR

"Save the GT3 and GT2, the company is a poseur-car manufacturer."

OR

I could go on but this is just silly. Your hate speak didn't even fly over on the 993 forum so now you want to bring it over here?!?!

The facts are that hundreds of 986's, 987's, 996's, and 997's are tracked around the world quite successfully every weekend and contrary to your belief, the wheels are not falling off. Additionally, Porsche is continuing to build them to be faster than earlier models have ever gone before. For an unbiased look at these capabilities all you need to see is a list of current "ring" times where even the "lowly 987S" manages to circle faster than your 993.

Bottom line......take it to an audience that wants to listen to your crap. Fortunately, that place does not seem to be Rennlist.

TD in DC

Oh, I stand corrected. Accept my apology. I didn't realize that you have spent some quality time driving the Boxster. When did you sell yours? What tracks did you use yours on?

pcar964

Tracked at Sebring, Moroso, and once at Roebling. Lots of fun at Sebring, great brakes and turned some pretty impressive laps, almost as quick as my current 993. Of course the S had pagid pads and slightly better suspension setup, but nonetheless impressive with similar weight and a few less bhp. The Boxster also had better gearing than my 993 which I know helped a lot coming out of the hairpin and especially turn 13...

The problems first surfaced with suspension clicking on left hand turns, required new arm. Then the next time out, when the car was back in the garage that night saw oil leak, turned out RMS. Then transmission had to be replaced after Moroso. Luckily all under warranty, but as the 36k mark was fast approaching (warranty almost up), it was time to sell it. Between those major issues, and stupid things like check engine light multiple times because of faulty O2 sensors, windows not sealing with the top properly, and various squeaks and rattles developing, the choice to sell it was obvious.

Maybe I had a lemon... but a friend of mine with 996 also had similar problems (RMS, always in for something, etc), and another guy with a 2.7 boxster I knew who had problems, my impression of the new cars was understandably bad. Did we all just have lemons? Possible, but checking Rennlist and seeing other horror stories convinced me to go back to the old cars, and I've been happy ever since.

Have the new cars improved? I don't know because I haven't owned one.. but I haven't seen any major changes advertized or talked about from Porsche, so I have no reason to believe they have... I hope for all of YOUR sakes that they have improved and are track-worthy. But I won't be taking the chance with my money until I'm convinced. My next "new generation" Pcar will probably be a GT3, when I can afford it.

pcar964

Obviously I've let my temper get the better of me from time to time, but it's not like I pulled a gun on someone, give me a break - I spoke harshly about new Porsches, what a crime...

Maybe I haven't always been eloquent in my thoughts on rennlist, but I've never talked out of my ***, I wrote what I thought, based on my experiences and perspective. If you want someone to blow sunshine up your @ss about the new cars, there are plenty of "I love Boxsters" threads. I said what I said, take it or leave it. And by the way, I have plenty of PMs from members who agreed with me even when I went on my crazy rants, so obviously not EVERYONE on rennlist thinks the same as you...

autobahnNY

Ray S, I see you have caught on. This is the same guy from a while ago (Greg?) who's distaste for Boxsters (or any new Porsche) is very apparent. I actually think he had a different name at one time. Constantly complaining about the seats, interior, and the track worthiness of his friend Boxster S. Now after that you purchased a Box S? I don't know. There are some long heated threads that I can dig up with this guy from years ago, which has turn into nasty fights, because he was the only one who had such a strong opinion on the lack of quality of the new Porsches.