Priced BETWEEN 911 and 911S????
06-08-2005, 02:05 PM
#76
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"If max performance doesn't mean that much to you, and place a greater emphasis on style, quality, balance and prestige.......the Cayman might be it, but please don't try and make one into the other."
I think the cayman might only have "prestige" over the vette, I would place a bet on the rest you have listed. In the end I do agree to each his own.
I think the cayman might only have "prestige" over the vette, I would place a bet on the rest you have listed. In the end I do agree to each his own.
06-08-2005, 03:30 PM
#77
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Originally Posted by 2000wrx
"If max performance doesn't mean that much to you, and place a greater emphasis on style, quality, balance and prestige.......the Cayman might be it, but please don't try and make one into the other."
I think the cayman might only have "prestige" over the vette, I would place a bet on the rest you have listed. In the end I do agree to each his own.
I think the cayman might only have "prestige" over the vette, I would place a bet on the rest you have listed. In the end I do agree to each his own.
I for one do not like the new Corvette styling at all and if past quality is any indicator of how the new ones will be built, Porsche is better (although not steller) in that area. Balance?.......I'll wait to drive each and scour the road tests before I pass judgement......in the past it has always been Porsche in this area.....but could change here. Performance to me has always been how comfortable a car is for me to drive fast and secure.......not 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. I never really liked driving vettes......feel too big and bulky, can't see the corners, and swill down gas (something to consider in total cost of ownership today) at an alarming rate. Just not for me no matter how fast, and the Cayman may not be either when it's all said and done. The next 6 months or so should prove quite interesting.
06-08-2005, 03:58 PM
#78
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by MikeN
I for one do not like the new Corvette styling at all and if past quality is any indicator of how the new ones will be built, Porsche is better (although not steller) in that area.
By the way, have you checked on the new 997 and all the problems it's having?
Balance?.......I'll wait to drive each and scour the road tests before I pass judgement......in the past it has always been Porsche in this area.....but could change here. Performance to me has always been how comfortable a car is for me to drive fast and secure.......not 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
I never really liked driving vettes......feel too big and bulky, can't see the corners, and swill down gas (something to consider in total cost of ownership today) at an alarming rate.
The next 6 months or so should prove quite interesting.
In the meantime, I can't wait to see the Cayman in person; that car looks great!
06-08-2005, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Lagavulin
I guess you're not aware of the JD Power Associates award in reliability the C5 has won over the past years. Judging by your statement then, that should be a great 'indicator' regarding the C6's reliability.
By the way, have you checked on the new 997 and all the problems it's having?
Not only does the Z06 have killer 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but also circulates the Nurburgring in an official 7:56 box-stock, including it's tires. Now that's a balanced performer!
Do you consider 28 mpg 'swilling down the gas at an alarming rate'? I ask because that's what a 7:56 Z06 gets out on the highway.
We do agree on one thing!
In the meantime, I can't wait to see the Cayman in person; that car looks great!
By the way, have you checked on the new 997 and all the problems it's having?
Not only does the Z06 have killer 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but also circulates the Nurburgring in an official 7:56 box-stock, including it's tires. Now that's a balanced performer!
Do you consider 28 mpg 'swilling down the gas at an alarming rate'? I ask because that's what a 7:56 Z06 gets out on the highway.
We do agree on one thing!
In the meantime, I can't wait to see the Cayman in person; that car looks great!
Porsche is not steller in this area we all know, but I'll take a 997 over a C6 for reliability any day. My neighbor with the 996 will be getting one soon, so I'll be watching closely.
Said it once say it again.......I don't care about 'ring times.......when was the last time you drove the 'ring to work?? Where I'm located there's nothing that even resembles the 'ring here.......doesn't mean a thing to me. If it is purely a track driven car the Z06 is IT, otherwise its all a mute point on what
balance means to each driver on the street. I drive the car that I feel the most confident in when going fast......hence the 928 (as you can relate to), and not a vette. I could go right down to the Chevy dealer now and have a big choice of new Vettes......the "normal" 400HP varieties that pretty much match a 997 stroke for stroke (and would kill my GT)......and buy any of them, I don't care, don't want one. If I had the money I would buy a 997 though.
28 MPG on the highway?......sure......going 55 with the big V8 hummin' along just above idle.......like you would be doing that in a Z06......not even realistic......lets talk stop and go city driving, what most people do, and throw in bursts of speed here and there. The Z06 will suck down tons more gas than a Cayman, that I can be sure of.
I'm not sold on the Cayman by a long shot, but I definitely won't be getting a Z06......even if it had 800HP........
06-08-2005, 05:21 PM
#80
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What I don't get is why doesn't Porsche do something about the RMS issue in the wet sump engine? 
I personally would never consider actually buying a Cayman or other Porsche with the wet sump engine for this reason. Leasing perhaps, but I would not want the car as "my own" out of warrantee given the financial and practical risk the wet sump engine presents.
And it goes beyond the RMS issue, I have seen the wet sump cars leave an autocross (sometimes on a tow truck) with engine failures more times than is reasonable for a car of Porsche's reputation and price.
The dry sump engine was never designed from the ground up for it's purpose, it is really a "hot rodded" air cooled engine that is overly complex and expensive to build. It seems it would be easy for Porsche to design a compromise engine that eliminated some of the the complexity of the current dry sump engine, and incorporate some of the cost saving principles of the wet sump design, to produce an engine more in tune with the cars reputation at a reasonable cost.
It would be a win-win situation in my mind.
I personally would never consider actually buying a Cayman or other Porsche with the wet sump engine for this reason. Leasing perhaps, but I would not want the car as "my own" out of warrantee given the financial and practical risk the wet sump engine presents.
And it goes beyond the RMS issue, I have seen the wet sump cars leave an autocross (sometimes on a tow truck) with engine failures more times than is reasonable for a car of Porsche's reputation and price.
The dry sump engine was never designed from the ground up for it's purpose, it is really a "hot rodded" air cooled engine that is overly complex and expensive to build. It seems it would be easy for Porsche to design a compromise engine that eliminated some of the the complexity of the current dry sump engine, and incorporate some of the cost saving principles of the wet sump design, to produce an engine more in tune with the cars reputation at a reasonable cost.
It would be a win-win situation in my mind.
06-08-2005, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Cupcar
What I don't get is why doesn't Porsche do something about the RMS issue in the wet sump engine?
I personally would never consider actually buying a Cayman or other Porsche with the wet sump engine for this reason. Leasing perhaps, but I would not want the car as "my own" out of warrantee given the financial and practical risk the wet sump engine presents.
And it goes beyond the RMS issue, I have seen the wet sump cars leave an autocross (sometimes on a tow truck) with engine failures more times than is reasonable for a car of Porsche's reputation and price.
The dry sump engine was never designed from the ground up for it's purpose, it is really a "hot rodded" air cooled engine that is overly complex and expensive to build. It seems it would be easy for Porsche to design a compromise engine that eliminated some of the the complexity of the current dry sump engine, and incorporate some of the cost saving principles of the wet sump design, to produce an engine more in tune with the cars reputation at a reasonable cost.
It would be a win-win situation in my mind.
I personally would never consider actually buying a Cayman or other Porsche with the wet sump engine for this reason. Leasing perhaps, but I would not want the car as "my own" out of warrantee given the financial and practical risk the wet sump engine presents.
And it goes beyond the RMS issue, I have seen the wet sump cars leave an autocross (sometimes on a tow truck) with engine failures more times than is reasonable for a car of Porsche's reputation and price.
The dry sump engine was never designed from the ground up for it's purpose, it is really a "hot rodded" air cooled engine that is overly complex and expensive to build. It seems it would be easy for Porsche to design a compromise engine that eliminated some of the the complexity of the current dry sump engine, and incorporate some of the cost saving principles of the wet sump design, to produce an engine more in tune with the cars reputation at a reasonable cost.
It would be a win-win situation in my mind.
The RMS is something for Porsche to definitely work on, but something that will probably be around until a total redesign of the wet-sump is done. Neither one of my Porsche owning neighbors has had to have an RMS replaced yet......the 996 has about 40k miles on it and the Boxster is about 2 years old with 20k on it.
06-08-2005, 05:47 PM
#82
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My only friend who bought a 996 had a RMS replacement at around 15 K miles and a new engine complements of Porsche by 30 K miles. 
He now has a GT3....maybe it is a strategy to get owners to "move up"
He now has a GT3....maybe it is a strategy to get owners to "move up"
06-08-2005, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cupcar
My only friend who bought a 996 had a RMS replacement at around 15 K miles and a new engine complements of Porsche by 30 K miles.
He now has a GT3....maybe it is a strategy to get owners to "move up"
He now has a GT3....maybe it is a strategy to get owners to "move up"
06-08-2005, 06:47 PM
#84
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Boxsterund - forgive me being so slow to respond. I haven't been watching this forum lately. To all of you, my thanks, this is one of the most interesting threads I have ever seen - reading it has been enjoyable.
To be specific - I was trying to point out that while the mid engine layout has advantages, the venerable rear engine design still has certain characteristics which allow it to be a very capable race-car. In other words, I would not sell the 911 short. As someone pointed out, Porsche GT3's are getting beaten by what some would consider "lesser" cars but only because restrictions have been placed on the GT3s to prevent them from dominating the series. Porsche has done this time and time again and series organizers are very wary of turning a money-making race program into a boring parade of Porsches.
That having been said, a mid engined car is clearly the choice of engineers in any series where the design is unrestricted. The GT1 comes to mind. While I am on my soap box, everyone should forget the notion that a modern 911 is difficult to drive. Porsche has cured the handling "quirks" (I am being nice) of the old 911 and anyone can drive a 993, 996 or 997 quickly without special training. Furthermore all the new Porsches are lapping faster than one would imagine simply because they are so easy to drive and PSM has a lot to do with that. Many drivers don't even know that PSM intervention has prevented a spin or worse.
When it comes to image, Porsche is somewhat tangled. Ask the average man of the street what "Porsche" signifies and chances are he'll say "911". It's been around for 40 years, had huge racing success and still has visual appeal, it's an icon.
The market (buyers really) for these cars is also changing. People now expect luxuries which were never part of the "sports-car" lexicon. Back in 1973 if you wanted power everything and all many of luxury, you bought a Caddy. If you wanted a hard core sports car you bought a 911, preferably the RS. These days the average buyer has gotten soft and spoiled. You can buy a hard-core sports car with no frills, a Lotus Elise comes to mind, but how many do they sell? Porsche did come out with a super high performance edgy
sports car - the GT2. It was a flop because buyers who claimed they wanted raw visceral performance bought 996 Turbos instead. The stupid price charged didn't help matters as you will surely point out.
Consider too the number of 996TTs sold with automatic transmission. It's a clue when you observe that PCNA sold more than twice as many Tiptronic TT's than GT3's in the same time period.
Porsche responded to demands for a real sports car with the GT3. A wonderful track day car but a low volume seller (less than 1000) because it is noisy, rides hard and fails to cosset the occupant. It seems as if we, the hard core, sports car, track driving fools are a minority. So what is Porsche to do? Make the 911 more luxurious while using technology to maintain a high level of performance? That's the 997, which in 'S' form is amazingly quick on a race track.
My intuition is that the Cayman is going to be the sports-car in the model line up as the 911 continues to evolve towards a Grand Touring car. If I was the CEO of Porsche, I'd be annoyed by the number of Mercedes SL 500s being sold at prices as high or higher than my prized 911. Ever take an SL to the track? No, and the buyers don't care either.
On Pricing - The Cayman is priced higher than a Boxster S but lower than a 997. Imagine the PAG marketing department. If they price the Cayman below the Boxster they have devalued all the Boxsters. I suspect they realized this and decided to offer more performance and price it above the 'S' for that reason. The fact that the Cayman is quite distinctive looking helps. While Boxster DNA is evident, it is a lot more than a Boxster Coupe.
I agree with whomever mentioned the RS America. There was a decontented 911 with higher performance at a lower price. They languished in showrooms. Anyone who makes that suggestion at PAG HQ will no doubt leave the board-room feet first. I also wonder if anyone has compared the price of a Boxster to a 944 in constant dollars. I suspect the Boxster may be cheaper.
Best,
To be specific - I was trying to point out that while the mid engine layout has advantages, the venerable rear engine design still has certain characteristics which allow it to be a very capable race-car. In other words, I would not sell the 911 short. As someone pointed out, Porsche GT3's are getting beaten by what some would consider "lesser" cars but only because restrictions have been placed on the GT3s to prevent them from dominating the series. Porsche has done this time and time again and series organizers are very wary of turning a money-making race program into a boring parade of Porsches.
That having been said, a mid engined car is clearly the choice of engineers in any series where the design is unrestricted. The GT1 comes to mind. While I am on my soap box, everyone should forget the notion that a modern 911 is difficult to drive. Porsche has cured the handling "quirks" (I am being nice) of the old 911 and anyone can drive a 993, 996 or 997 quickly without special training. Furthermore all the new Porsches are lapping faster than one would imagine simply because they are so easy to drive and PSM has a lot to do with that. Many drivers don't even know that PSM intervention has prevented a spin or worse.
When it comes to image, Porsche is somewhat tangled. Ask the average man of the street what "Porsche" signifies and chances are he'll say "911". It's been around for 40 years, had huge racing success and still has visual appeal, it's an icon.
The market (buyers really) for these cars is also changing. People now expect luxuries which were never part of the "sports-car" lexicon. Back in 1973 if you wanted power everything and all many of luxury, you bought a Caddy. If you wanted a hard core sports car you bought a 911, preferably the RS. These days the average buyer has gotten soft and spoiled. You can buy a hard-core sports car with no frills, a Lotus Elise comes to mind, but how many do they sell? Porsche did come out with a super high performance edgy
sports car - the GT2. It was a flop because buyers who claimed they wanted raw visceral performance bought 996 Turbos instead. The stupid price charged didn't help matters as you will surely point out.
Consider too the number of 996TTs sold with automatic transmission. It's a clue when you observe that PCNA sold more than twice as many Tiptronic TT's than GT3's in the same time period.
Porsche responded to demands for a real sports car with the GT3. A wonderful track day car but a low volume seller (less than 1000) because it is noisy, rides hard and fails to cosset the occupant. It seems as if we, the hard core, sports car, track driving fools are a minority. So what is Porsche to do? Make the 911 more luxurious while using technology to maintain a high level of performance? That's the 997, which in 'S' form is amazingly quick on a race track.
My intuition is that the Cayman is going to be the sports-car in the model line up as the 911 continues to evolve towards a Grand Touring car. If I was the CEO of Porsche, I'd be annoyed by the number of Mercedes SL 500s being sold at prices as high or higher than my prized 911. Ever take an SL to the track? No, and the buyers don't care either.
On Pricing - The Cayman is priced higher than a Boxster S but lower than a 997. Imagine the PAG marketing department. If they price the Cayman below the Boxster they have devalued all the Boxsters. I suspect they realized this and decided to offer more performance and price it above the 'S' for that reason. The fact that the Cayman is quite distinctive looking helps. While Boxster DNA is evident, it is a lot more than a Boxster Coupe.
I agree with whomever mentioned the RS America. There was a decontented 911 with higher performance at a lower price. They languished in showrooms. Anyone who makes that suggestion at PAG HQ will no doubt leave the board-room feet first. I also wonder if anyone has compared the price of a Boxster to a 944 in constant dollars. I suspect the Boxster may be cheaper.
Best,
06-08-2005, 07:13 PM
#85
Three Wheelin'
heres the bottom line. Most of us wouldnt buy a chevy or stang or whatever. But For the price you pay and the prestige porsche it supposed to command, it really SUCKS to have to worry about that guy that just bought a vetter or what ever when they pull up next to you (and you're lying if you dont admit that you do)
Most car MFG have more power every year, porsche still makes cars that have the same amount of power they did in 1985, so why should i buy a new porsche, when a 951 can perform just as well as a brand new porsche? for a 1/3 the cost.
I mean in 92 the 928 had as much power/tq as a 2000 vette so you figure buy now it would still have at much power as the z06(if they still made it)
The Management at porsche is STUPID, i said it before and ill say it again: kill Weideking!!!!! Id bet Ferry would!
Most car MFG have more power every year, porsche still makes cars that have the same amount of power they did in 1985, so why should i buy a new porsche, when a 951 can perform just as well as a brand new porsche? for a 1/3 the cost.
I mean in 92 the 928 had as much power/tq as a 2000 vette so you figure buy now it would still have at much power as the z06(if they still made it)
The Management at porsche is STUPID, i said it before and ill say it again: kill Weideking!!!!! Id bet Ferry would!
06-08-2005, 08:04 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by M Danger
heres the bottom line. Most of us wouldnt buy a chevy or stang or whatever. But For the price you pay and the prestige porsche it supposed to command, it really SUCKS to have to worry about that guy that just bought a vetter or what ever when they pull up next to you (and you're lying if you dont admit that you do)
Most car MFG have more power every year, porsche still makes cars that have the same amount of power they did in 1985, so why should i buy a new porsche, when a 951 can perform just as well as a brand new porsche? for a 1/3 the cost.
I mean in 92 the 928 had as much power/tq as a 2000 vette so you figure buy now it would still have at much power as the z06(if they still made it)
The Management at porsche is STUPID, i said it before and ill say it again: kill Weideking!!!!! Id bet Ferry would!
Most car MFG have more power every year, porsche still makes cars that have the same amount of power they did in 1985, so why should i buy a new porsche, when a 951 can perform just as well as a brand new porsche? for a 1/3 the cost.
I mean in 92 the 928 had as much power/tq as a 2000 vette so you figure buy now it would still have at much power as the z06(if they still made it)
The Management at porsche is STUPID, i said it before and ill say it again: kill Weideking!!!!! Id bet Ferry would!
I don't give a dime about what other people drive. If it makes them happy, that's great! Any Corvette owner that loves his car and the joy that it gives him is a kindred spirit to me! We are much more alike than different.
Yes, you can take a 951 and tune it to out-perform some of the newer Porsches, but you still have an old car that is going to eat you alive with upkeep. I know, I have owned many, many 944s as well as a '89 Turbo S.
I did all the work on my Porsches and still do on my 993. The difference is I have had to do just about every repair mechanically possible to the 944s I have owned and after pulling engines, transaxles, and suspensions year after year, and don't forget water pumps and cam belts. I am tired of wrenching and look forward to driving my car for a change. If your bag is turning nuts, that's fine, too!
The four years and nearly 30K miles I have put on my 993 has been lower maintenance than my new Ford pickup! I only put oil and gas into the car and one set of brake pads during that whole time I have owned it.
So, many people would be happy to slide out of an old car and into a new car. The ultimate proof is in the numbers. And Porsche is doing very well when it comes to revenue! That is due to the STUPID, as you say, management.
Porsche said in 1994 in their 993 promotional video that some people were "...looking for things that weren't created to be something to everyone, but everything to someone."
Simply put, it sounds like you are not one of those people. That's your loss, not Porsche's.
Marv
06-08-2005, 08:20 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
Ferry may be spinning in his grave, but Porsche management isn't stupid. The top guys at Porsche AG are laughing at such talk all the way to the bank. And I'm not lying when I say I don't worry (or even care for that matter) when a Z06 or other big motor pulls up next to me at a light.
06-08-2005, 08:56 PM
#88
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by MikeN
I don't put much stock in JD Powers......never have never will.
I pretty much go by experiences of owners that I know personally, and they are not very good for the C6.......everything from interior pieces that fall off on day one, to interior paint that peels on day two, body panels that don't line up, rattles and squeaks, A/C failures within one week of new, I can go on and on. I personally have 3 close relatives (including brother-in-law) and 3 neighbors with C5s/C6s (some of them I have worked on) and they all pretty much suck in the reliability dept.......maybe JD powers found some magical ones. I also have two neighbors with Porsches....one 996 and one Boxster S......so far they are both far more reliable ( but not perfect) than the vettes. My 15 year old 928 is far more realiable than my brother-in-laws C6.......as I picked him up at the Chevy dealer yesterday after he had to leave it there again. It wasn't the first time for this.
Said it once say it again.......I don't care about 'ring times.....
..when was the last time you drove the 'ring to work??
The Nurburgring is widely accepted as one of, if not the best, indicator of a car's true high-performance potential. Walter Rohl driving for Porsche, and John Heinricy for Corvette; it doesn't get much better than that.
With that said, the Z06 eclipesed the magical 8-minute mark; absolutely stunning.
Where I'm located there's nothing that even resembles the 'ring here.......doesn't mean a thing to me. If it is purely a track driven car the Z06 is IT, otherwise its all a mute point on what
balance means to each driver on the street. I drive the car that I feel the most confident in when going fast......hence the 928 (as you can relate to), and not a vette.
balance means to each driver on the street. I drive the car that I feel the most confident in when going fast......hence the 928 (as you can relate to), and not a vette.
28 MPG on the highway?......sure......going 55 with the big V8 hummin' along just above idle.......like you would be doing that in a Z06......not even realistic......
You are more concerned about 'proving a point' with manufactured, inaccurate statements and trying to pass them off as 'the gospel'. Give me a break!
lets talk stop and go city driving, what most people do, and throw in bursts of speed here and there. The Z06 will suck down tons more gas than a Cayman, that I can be sure of.
One more thing. My Z06 gets better average gas mileage than both my 928 and 993. So, are you 'so sure' about the Cayman? And if so, again, what do you base it upon?
I'm not sold on the Cayman by a long shot, but I definitely won't be getting a Z06......even if it had 800HP........
Man, I cannot wait to see the Cayman in person!
06-09-2005, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lagavulin
That's an easy 'out'...
That's funny as my experiences are quite the opposite of yours. That's why an independent party such as JDP can help clarify some common misconceptions/biases.
Classic 'sour grapes' argument since 'your car' was not as fast as 'their car'.
Driving to work I'd be perfectly happy driving a Buick. I did not buy any of my sport cars just to have a better 'drive to work' experience.
The Nurburgring is widely accepted as one of, if not the best, indicator of a car's true high-performance potential. Walter Rohl driving for Porsche, and John Heinricy for Corvette; it doesn't get much better than that.
With that said, the Z06 eclipesed the magical 8-minute mark; absolutely stunning.
What do you base your opinion on? I own both, and the Z06 is superior to the 928 in every way. And while we're at it, the Z06 is superior in every way to my mint-993 too; but holy crap that 993 is beautiful!
Again, you have NO idea what you're talking about; I average 28 mpg on the highway while doing between 70-75 mph! You are obviously taking huge 'liberties' when it comes to stating 'facts', and those misguided liberties subsequently taints all that you've said here, and any other past/present posts.
You are more concerned about 'proving a point' with manufactured, inaccurate statements and trying to pass them off as 'the gospel'. Give me a break!
Are you as sure as your previous statements? Again, what do you base that upon?
One more thing. My Z06 gets better average gas mileage than both my 928 and 993. So, are you 'so sure' about the Cayman? And if so, again, what do you base it upon?
What this ALL boils down to is 'car guys' versus 'brand-X-only guys'. I like and appreciate fast cars, regardless of manufacturer.
Man, I cannot wait to see the Cayman in person!
That's funny as my experiences are quite the opposite of yours. That's why an independent party such as JDP can help clarify some common misconceptions/biases.
Classic 'sour grapes' argument since 'your car' was not as fast as 'their car'.
Driving to work I'd be perfectly happy driving a Buick. I did not buy any of my sport cars just to have a better 'drive to work' experience.
The Nurburgring is widely accepted as one of, if not the best, indicator of a car's true high-performance potential. Walter Rohl driving for Porsche, and John Heinricy for Corvette; it doesn't get much better than that.
With that said, the Z06 eclipesed the magical 8-minute mark; absolutely stunning.
What do you base your opinion on? I own both, and the Z06 is superior to the 928 in every way. And while we're at it, the Z06 is superior in every way to my mint-993 too; but holy crap that 993 is beautiful!
Again, you have NO idea what you're talking about; I average 28 mpg on the highway while doing between 70-75 mph! You are obviously taking huge 'liberties' when it comes to stating 'facts', and those misguided liberties subsequently taints all that you've said here, and any other past/present posts.
You are more concerned about 'proving a point' with manufactured, inaccurate statements and trying to pass them off as 'the gospel'. Give me a break!
Are you as sure as your previous statements? Again, what do you base that upon?
One more thing. My Z06 gets better average gas mileage than both my 928 and 993. So, are you 'so sure' about the Cayman? And if so, again, what do you base it upon?
What this ALL boils down to is 'car guys' versus 'brand-X-only guys'. I like and appreciate fast cars, regardless of manufacturer.
Man, I cannot wait to see the Cayman in person!
Lagavulin -
I can tell by your sig you are a person that values HP and mods over everything else.....not a bad thing, but not everything......what I would call a typical Z06 owner......surprised you don't mention it in your sig since it appears to be your car of choice. Just remember there are several types of "car guys" out there and not every one is a horsepower junkie. I'm not, and neither are many people who collect classic Ferraris, Mustangs, Model Ts or even Corvettes........so don't go insulting a group of people that just don't have the same opinions about perforance or cars that you do.
JDP just sucks in my opinion only.......they have been wrong on every car I have owned period.......including my last three Audis that have been steller in the reliable department and previous Acuras that have sucked.........As I said before I tend to go with first hand experiences, not reports......if yours have been different great. I would be an idiot to follow a paper report when my real world experiences told me something different.
Sour grapes?.....your car faster than my car?........what are we in high-school again?......BTDT.......got over it. I drive what I like to drive.....I don't have to prove myself with some mega-horsepower beast......if that's your game, great.
Is the Z06 a better performing car than a 928......sure, no doubt. Does that mean I want to drive one over the 928 or maybe a Cayman.......no, not at all. The last SS Z28 was faster than the 928 and was mega cheap.......so why didn't it sell?.......by most standards it really was a crappy car with a lot of HP that nobody wanted anymore. I like driving the 928 over a Z06......even if the Z06 is a better performer......is that so hard for you to understand?? Maybe it is.
If your Z06 is so great than why do you even mess with owning Porsches?.....why not two more Z06s? Could it be other tangible assests
the Porsches have?.....looks?......sounds?......prestige? If the Z06 is so much a better performing car as you say, why even mess with unreliable, underperforming Porsches?
About MPG.......are you publicly stating that the new 7.0L Z06 will get better gas mileage than a 3.4L Cayman? Just want to know.....you obviously seem to know this as fact......I have never seen anyone that has been able to meet government MPG ratings in the real world......you will be the first. Good for you.
Car guys vs. "brand-X-only guys"?........when Chevy actually has something I would like to own and drive I would have no problem buying it (and could easily do so).......I'm not loyal to Porsche or any brand.......but I don't like driving any recent Vettes of any variety and that doesn't leave much to like in the whole GM lineup.
I have stated before that the Cayman will not be the best performing, best bang for the buck deal (no new Porsche has ever had this title)........if someone has a problem with that......buy something else.......it's that simple.
06-09-2005, 01:51 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
The management of PCNA is more to blame for any peformance deficiencies we have here in the USA, not the management of Porsche AG.
Porsche AG builds whatever PCNA thinks it can sell and PCNA does not see the performance market as being worth the time and effort, it is easier to sell to those who really want a car for it's looks and status, period.
Even delete options for options that are USA standard but optional in Europe are not too successful in the USA- look how few cars are ordered with the suntop delete option? There are other option deletes that would be possible to make a simpler more sporting vechicle as available in Europe.
Another good example of PCNA witholding performance is the sports suspension currently available in Europe on the 997 that includes a limited slip differential, apparently PCNA does not think this is worth offering.
The past is littered with examples of cars not imported to the USA. The 2.7 RS, the 964 RS, the 993 RS, the GT3 Mk1, GT3 RS, etc. Usually the simple answer is "USA emissions and safety requirements" kept the car out.
After PCNA imported the 45 Carrera Cup cars that were really a European RS with USA equipment added, I asked PCNA CEO Fred Schwab directly why he didn't bring in the 964 European RS over in the first place and he said "I didn't think I could sell enough of them".
Anyway the real problem is US we are the performance market and we don't exist in large enough numbers for PCNA to pander too, we never have and unfortunately probably never will.
Porsche AG builds whatever PCNA thinks it can sell and PCNA does not see the performance market as being worth the time and effort, it is easier to sell to those who really want a car for it's looks and status, period.
Even delete options for options that are USA standard but optional in Europe are not too successful in the USA- look how few cars are ordered with the suntop delete option? There are other option deletes that would be possible to make a simpler more sporting vechicle as available in Europe.
Another good example of PCNA witholding performance is the sports suspension currently available in Europe on the 997 that includes a limited slip differential, apparently PCNA does not think this is worth offering.
The past is littered with examples of cars not imported to the USA. The 2.7 RS, the 964 RS, the 993 RS, the GT3 Mk1, GT3 RS, etc. Usually the simple answer is "USA emissions and safety requirements" kept the car out.
After PCNA imported the 45 Carrera Cup cars that were really a European RS with USA equipment added, I asked PCNA CEO Fred Schwab directly why he didn't bring in the 964 European RS over in the first place and he said "I didn't think I could sell enough of them".
Anyway the real problem is US we are the performance market and we don't exist in large enough numbers for PCNA to pander too, we never have and unfortunately probably never will.