To N or not to N?
04-12-2019, 09:10 AM
#16
Drifting
^That has as much legitimacy as having all the stamps on the dealer stamp book.
The problem with N-spec is this... there's ZERO metric as to what exactly is better or optimized because Michelin doesn't want to **** off non Pcar customers. They literally do not want to convey that their non-N-spec tire is not the best.
The problem with N-spec is this... there's ZERO metric as to what exactly is better or optimized because Michelin doesn't want to **** off non Pcar customers. They literally do not want to convey that their non-N-spec tire is not the best.
04-12-2019, 09:23 AM
#17
I personally think the concept that Michelin makes a different tire in 18" vs. 19", branded as the same MPSS#, with a different compound or specs to qualify for an "N" stamp doesn't make sense to me from a development, design, or manufacturing perspective.
The PS4 development was a major effort with massive amounts of research. It then results in a major tooling of a production line, complicated processes around the tire production, mixing of specific compounds, etc. To get an N spec tire to be different - there would have to be parallel development, different compounds, research, different production line, etc. It just doesn't add-up. I'd be shocked if there was any difference at all, and even more shocked if that difference was noticeable.
The PS4 development was a major effort with massive amounts of research. It then results in a major tooling of a production line, complicated processes around the tire production, mixing of specific compounds, etc. To get an N spec tire to be different - there would have to be parallel development, different compounds, research, different production line, etc. It just doesn't add-up. I'd be shocked if there was any difference at all, and even more shocked if that difference was noticeable.
04-12-2019, 10:06 AM
#18
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for these responses. Interestingly enough, the Michelin don't seem to be available in sizes to fit a 981 Base Cayman w 18". After much consideration and consultation, I decided to go with the Bridgestone Pole Position, non-N spec tire. I will report back my findings. I thank you all for your input
04-12-2019, 11:00 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
I would never pay extra for it. Plus, RE71>any N spec tire.
04-12-2019, 11:04 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I have an 09 Boxster PDK w/Sport/Sport+ with 18" that I started doing DEs the end of 2017. Fourteen track days to date. I had PS2 and now 4S tires. The only N spec tire that Tire Rack has for my car is the Bridgestone RE050A which finishes near the bottom in Tire Rack testing. The car had really old Michelins when I bought it with 15K miles but don't remember whether they were N spec. IMO as demonstrated by the Tire Rack testing later tires than the original OEM N spec tires clearly appear to be better. I really like the 4S especially in the rain. Also I suspect that MPG and rolling resistance are a part of the N spec which is not in the Tire Rack testing. The Bridgestones are also $200+ a set more than the MP4S. Anybody have experience with RE050A and 4S?
04-12-2019, 11:14 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
I'm not trying to convince you. Believe what you want. I will share there was a post, here if I recall, where a set of Michelins were purchased in the correct size, but not N-spec. Tires were mounted and it turned out they were slightly more narrow and different sidewalls than the N-spec tire of the same name and size. It became evident to me that it is more than just compound that defines N-spec.
04-12-2019, 11:57 AM
#22
Burning Brakes
Tire Rack's primary function in life is to make money. They aren't in business to decide for you what tire to buy and only offer those. They know people pinch pennies and are happy to take advantage of a lower cost option. I'm a mere mortal. Am I going to tell any difference between a tire optimized for my car versus the generic version? Probably not. But if I buy the generic version and if it ever gives me feedback like it's not behaving the way I think it should, or it doesn't last as long as I think it should, I'll wonder if the optimized version was better in those regards and if so was probably worth the price difference. My bottom line is if there's an N version of the tire I want for my application, then I'll buy it. If there isn't I won't care.
04-12-2019, 11:59 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
From Porsche: "Porsche has detailed guidelines for the properties of tires fitted as original equipment, defining precise criteria for their development and specification. The result is tires that are specifically developed to guarantee the excellent driving characteristics every Porsche is built for."
From Michelin: I've spoken with a Michelin development engineer who confirmed that they work closely with a number of auto manufacturers (including Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, etc.) to develop tires specifically to their requirements that result in a design that will differ from the "generic" model. He did indicate that the use of a "generic" tire would certainly work on any car, however the tires designed for the manufacturers will bring out the best in the car it's designed for.
So, I guess the decision is really up to you the buyer to decide if the premium is worth it to you.
From Michelin: I've spoken with a Michelin development engineer who confirmed that they work closely with a number of auto manufacturers (including Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, etc.) to develop tires specifically to their requirements that result in a design that will differ from the "generic" model. He did indicate that the use of a "generic" tire would certainly work on any car, however the tires designed for the manufacturers will bring out the best in the car it's designed for.
So, I guess the decision is really up to you the buyer to decide if the premium is worth it to you.
04-12-2019, 12:00 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
04-12-2019, 12:13 PM
#25
This needs an asterisk. It is a faster tire. It is a more responsive tire. It is possibly a more predictable tire. Compared to the N-spec Pirelli PZero the RE-71R is worse in both wet performance and road noise. For a pure sport / track tire it's the obvious choice. For daily driving duties and occasional track use people are going to have to weigh up the trade-offs and choose appropriately.
04-12-2019, 03:14 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
This needs an asterisk. It is a faster tire. It is a more responsive tire. It is possibly a more predictable tire. Compared to the N-spec Pirelli PZero the RE-71R is worse in both wet performance and road noise. For a pure sport / track tire it's the obvious choice. For daily driving duties and occasional track use people are going to have to weigh up the trade-offs and choose appropriately.
04-12-2019, 04:43 PM
#29
Tire adhesion has a lot to do with the roads (aggregate used) and temperatures of where you live. Here in Texas I daily drove RE-11s on my RS60 Spyder and they gripped like no tomorrow, dry or wet. Where I lived in NC, most of the roads had a very gritty aggregate so they are like sandpaper. Tire life is terrible, but grip is supreme. In Texas I feel a extreme performance tire is ok as tire life is way above average (have 21k miles on my DD's Cup 2's and they have tons of life left). That wouldn't apply everywhere.
04-12-2019, 04:58 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Same car, same driver, same race track, same weather...RE-71R was less than half a second faster than the OE Pirelli PZero in the same widths. Either I'm coaxing more out of the PZero than they are supposed to give, or the RE-71R isn't an r-compound in disguise as everyone seems to suggest when comparing to a Nitto NT-01. On a wet, rainy day I was slower on the RE-71R than a stock Subaru BRZ on Michelin Primacy all-seasons.