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Another upgrade the 968 really should have is better, modern headlights. The stock ones aren't bad, but there's a lot of room for improvement. I'm working on a custom bixenon setup mounted in the bumper, I'll post it up if I ever get it worked out...
spot on! btw, i think Josh ended up with some other supercar variant.
Just completed the 7th transcontinental trip from S. Cal to the Boston area
in the 968.... After crossing the Hudson i drove up through Van's town just
north of the City and enjoyed a route with lots of twisties through northwest
Connecticut. What a blast!
It's strange having a car that doesn't leak a drop of anything onto
Mother Earth. 5 years on---still loving this car......
Last edited by odurandina; 08-13-2020 at 11:49 PM.
Some thoughts for anyone thinking of buying a 968.....
When considering a purchase of a 968. First, consider: Are these
cars by the standards of yesterday vs today the natural progression
of the 944S and 944S2, or are they something more?
I'll be the first to say 968's are great cars. They can be tuned to be
full blown supercar's right in your own garage.
Yet, due to the complex nature of the 968's variable valve timing system,
numerous other high end features, and wear/failure items, i think it would
be fair to begin by looking at the 968's as "semi exotics."
It's probably the best thing to consider if you think about buying one.
My 'big picture' outlook about the 968 may not find universal agreement.
One of the biggest reasons is that many people involved with these cars
are extremely proficient with a wrench. It changes things considerably.
But, either way, your chance of becoming a long term owner of a 968
probably will increase if you set your maintenance expectations high prior
to purchase. This is a good thing, because you may discover, the 968 is
a car you'll want to keep and drive for a long time.
At the time, the 968's cost quite a bit less than a 911. But if compared to
today (adjusted for inflation), the 968's were priced well-higher than a
Porsche Cayman S costs today. If that wasn't enough, the factory promised
dealers they'd recoup 75% of the lost 911 sale $$$ in invoice + maintenance.
(They weren't bluffing).
The 968's computers are vastly superior, and stand up well over time.
The cars came with the awesome 6 speed gearbox, and significantly
more parts to watch--at significantly higher cost.
The saving grace of the 968 vs the old 944 is the updated ML 2.1 Motronic
engine management--the same used in the mid/late '90s 993 and Boxsters,
with its advanced features: 2 knock sensors, adaptive fuel & timing adjustment,
Mass Air Flow sensor logic w/ direct fire ignition coils per cylinder, purge
canister control, precision sequential fuel control and diagnostics, and
fuel enrichment at cold startup. Idle speed is fully-digitized, w/ fast-idle
during warm-up--
night and day long term reliability and functionality compared to the old 944.
The 968's engine management system has stood the test of time.
Maintenance issues are minimal. Service; reliable and predictable--
with minimal diagnostics and parts requiring replacement.
Still, price out the maintenance of the 968. The situation with the economy
will put you at an advantage should you discover an eager seller.
But, you must be tactical and firm when you buy any German or other
semi-exotic car. It's your money you'll be spending. Deferred maintenance
issues will be your ammo to negotiate a significant price reduction.
Many of these 968's for sale have high miles. That points to the resiliency
of the cars. But there's a long list of large $$$, medium and small wear items.
I'll get right to it, and discuss some (not all) of them here.
Rod bearings/high mile car: It's a good idea they get done (now).
My clutch went bad at 166K miles. Was it done recently on the 968 you're
looking at? It costs $2,200~2,500 to get done: (more at the Porsche dealer).
Check the cruise control. Good chance it's shot. Check to see the
odometer is functioning. Some claim you shouldn't set the odometer trip
reset button when the car is in motion. The odometer gives a bit of a jolt
with the car moving, but, resets smoothly when the vehicle is stopped.
The AC pump is a concern. A failed AC bearing will cause the belt to break,
which can lead to timing/ bs belt slip or failure. The service life span of the
AC bearing is about 65,000 miles. Some report better results.
The rear shocks are probably shot. Oem shocks are short life wear items.
The front shocks are of lesser quality than after market. They can be
replaced with longer-life Koni coil overs.
The ball joints are in the control arms. We're in luck because there's a
shop in Florida who can save owners about a grand by installing fresh
ball joints-- saving you the trouble of having to buy complete control arms
from the manufacturer (who happens to be Porsche).
A saving grace: for premature & costly ball joint wear/control arm failure
is the proper maintenance of the caster blocks/ [a.k.a. rear control arm
bushings], front bushings, sway bar bushings and shocks.
The complete set of bushings aren't too expensive, but they should be
done all at the same time about every 15~20k miles.
When were they last done?
When was the timing/BS belts, pullies and H2O pump last done?
Old cam chain tensioner pads and cam chains that have not been
changed out are a big concern.
Lazy owners who don't change the cam chain pads when they are
due will cause excessive wear in the cams and premature failure.
(not trying to scare you, but new cams may cost more than a car is worth).
Bad cams or blown timing belts are sometimes the reason 968's are sent
to boneyards.
When was the last time the transaxle fluid was changed? What is the
history? The Getrag gearboxes are getting harder and harder to source.
Their fluid should be changed about every 30~35k miles.
968's and 944's are notorious for leaking fluids and oil. With the 968, leaks
in the high pressure power steering line, oil cooler lines and seals are
commonly seen. Most of these cars need the fuel lines (in the engine bay).
They are now well past their due date. Check the recent service history.
Replace them asap.
Check the recent service history of the brake pads/ discs, & fluid. 968
Calipers age out and fail sooner than 928GTS Big Blacks.
Big Blacks are the best replacement/upgrade. Paragon Parts has a
HQ Big Black upgrade kit: Avoid using parted out 911TT/Big Red calipers,
commonly available on Ebay, as their fuel line fittings are set in the wrong
direction. But keep to only the 993TT (vented) disks.
Check if the brakes have been upgraded, replaced or rebuilt.
Check the rubber body seals and rocker panel condition. Our rocker panels
are cheap Porsche garbage: and often shrink over time. They slip off their
inserts from normal body roll, necessitating the addition of rivets to stretch
them back into their slots.
The hatch glass, and door/window trim may be bad, adding more cost
to your purchase. Walk around and feel the rear glass seals and body trim.
The seals become loose--and will need fresh epoxy:
Of course there's no reason to tell the seller you'll be doing a professional
quality repair using a fresh canister of Dow U-428 black glass seal epoxy.
Our secret.
You'll also need to flush the drain holes--to keep water from flooding
the cabin after purchase.
Electrical gremlins with the popup lamps and rear lights are
common issues. Make sure to check that everything is
working properly.
The likelihood of an MAF sensor going bad is something to add
to the list when citing soon-to-do items at purchase.
When i bought my 968, a Florida/NC car, i gave the seller
a very hard time over the maintenance that was coming due--
this despite having a folder w/ a thick stack of service sheets.
He was retired, and had bought the car as his retirement present.
He loved that car--and was a great owner w/ $12K in receipts.
But 'Hank'had recently got a speeding ticket. Being that he and his
wife were on a fixed income, it was the last straw with that expensive
car: wifey made Hank sell it.
Previous repairs included a new AC pump, oil cooler lines/seals,
power steering lines, and a failed radiator (i'm still trying to figure
that one out), and more stuff. Repairs for a car not that long out of
warranty. Wifey was on the phone and i gave him the list of the
$15~20k in service that was coming soon. i heard sighs and some
whispers from wifey, adding to her surety, the car needed to go:
(undoubtedly w/ so much recent service fresh in her mind).
i kept firm and offered $4.5K LESS than Hank's asking price.
Next thing, i heard the wifey whisper "take it....."
i was on a plane the next day down to Raleigh, NC and a bus to
Wilmington, NC. i worried they might change their minds.
In any case, [she] was happy to be rid of it.
It turned out to be a very good car--but, despite the previous owner's
efforts.some of the items i mentioned indeed came due in first few years--
I am also very fortunate that a super generous RL-er came to my aid,
and performed a complete service to breathe new life into my car.
There's great people here on RL: some of whom will break out their
tools, and bend over backwards to help!
I try to burn into people's minds the idea that 968's are "semi exotic."
This essay, and the 968 forum should provide ample proof:
the 968 is, in fact a semi-exotic car.
Hank + Wifey paid >$50 Grand to drive their 968 66k miles.
Good wrenching skills (which do not possess) does allow 968 ownership
to work out well, w/ thousands of miles of pleasurable drives.
The cars will benefit tremendously from an upgrade to 968T/993TT
Sport Cups, or other 911 rims w/ 8~8.5" in the front and ~10" in the rear,
with wide, max-performance, summer tires.
In the case of car recently posted on these forums w/ 150k miles:
if i were contemplating purchase, i'd be wondering how much it's
going to cost to get me from 150~250k miles. i expect to be dealing
25~35K in maintenance, with most of the items i mentioned, and
head gasket failure on the path to 250k miles.
It's nice when a car is well maintained. But it will ALL be cancelled
out within the first 15~25k miles, as additional wear items begin to
mount up, and come due.
Probably getting into a bit too much detail: but the 968's are the
natural upgrade to the 944, still without the burden of 944T
maintenance. But, do a price check comparing the 944 parts to 968.... wham! welcome to the latter day Porsche parts regime!
While it's true the S2's had also gotten crazy expensive, the
metamorphosis was complete with the arrival of the 968.
It effectively closed the era of an affordable entry level Porsche.
The cars were presented as a sophisticated car to the upscale buyer,
and despite a shortage of features--that's what they are.
[Driving my '87 944S from 17k miles to 116k miles i changed......
a fan relay, oil and tires. i ran 225-60-15's straight off state
trooper cars. No timing/bs belts changed..... nothing but that
fan relay replaced.
Oct '94: historic stupidity & negligence
i blew the engine in my 944S driving 180 miles a day for
2 months and forgetting to check the oil over several
thousand miles....
i was suffering from an acute case of supermodel gf of
the brain, working long hours too far from home.
Just kept forgetting and procrastinating: On the occasion
when i remembered i'd once again forgotten to check
the oil. i couldn't be bothered to pop the hood.
On a trip from Austin to Midland to see Miss Big Spring
(on an extended work assignment with the Texas
Dept of Corrections), i departed work in the Hill Country,
and gassed up in Fredericksburg, once again forgetting to
check the oil. Upon remembering, minutes later, i decided
i'd check it when i reached (Junction), TX.
Getting on the 10, i commenced to driving 125mph with
a Vette (galactically stupid).
Just before Junction, TX i glanced at the Oil, now reading
0 bars, i stopped. Walked a mile up the road into the same
gas station i was intending to stop in: (Junction).
i got some oil: but the engine was destroyed w/ 116k miles
and 7 years on the belts.....
(i was planning to do them in the coming days).
i tell that story because you can't drive a 968 like that.
There was a web page that followed an ownership experience
for a nice manual 968 hard top in Wimbledon Green about
15 years ago, that provided a complete maintenance history
from 0 to ~175k miles.
Warranties were short (miles) back then. The owner put up
an fair list of stuff. Evolution or not: it presented quite a
departure from a late '80s n/a 944. i had an almost identical
owner experience from 66~199k miles as reported by the owner
of the Wimbledon Green car. These cars are consistent.
If i only had a few seconds to talk to a new buyer of a 968
w/ 50k miles say, back in the late '90's--i'd offer fair warning:
[From 50k miles to 250k miles, expect to have a quite expensive
owner experience, similar to a Mercedes Benz S-Class, Audi S4/S8,
or BMW "M Series," but, possibly more $$$, with some examples].
They share all the similarities. Past a certain point, owners would
be tempted to defer maintenance, and focus on the crucial wear items,
like oil and belts, and wait out repairs as they come along.
[Why not]: considering after 40~50k, miles, they all leap into the the
"German semi exotic" zone w/ the well-earned reputations
(think BMW 850): The fate of the aging semi exotic is to come to spend
more and more time sitting in driveways like the 850's of yore,
stop being driven altogether, and eventually be sold off.
There were also the infamous 'pinion bearing failures' w/ the first
batch of gearboxes. I was standing in Kevin Gross' transmission lab
about 8 years ago, and he showed what the bearing inside the gearbox
Getrag had mistakenly over torqued for the first couple of thousand cars
before the discovery of the blunder got back to Lagaay's team in Stuttgart.
That run of gearboxes should have been recalled.
/
Last edited by odurandina; 11-28-2020 at 03:53 PM.
Some dude asked about ride heights up the other thread.
Has anyone lowered their cars?
i run about Carrera GT ride height (ground clearance for the CGT is
claimed unofficially to be as low as 3.4"). That number seems implausible,
but i guess with a sufficient scraper, it's workable.
i need to add a scraper to my lower front valance.
My nose rides at ~5.5" above the tarmac,
and will cut the head of a raccoon clean off.
(I hit either a raccoon or beaver somewhere in Ohio going 80mph
recently. Had to hose the blood off the driver's side air duct).
Jackrabbits twirl out the back spinning at 7500 rpm---
Small price for cutting through the wind like an F-18,
and making about ~195lbs of downforce at 190mph.
Last edited by odurandina; 11-28-2020 at 03:56 PM.
recently completed:
1. Front Koni adjustable struts/ inserts
2. New center M030.2 sway bar mounts (factory mounts installed in 2015 cracked)
3. Fresh sway bar bushings, (M030.2 front & Weltmeister rear
4. Fresh control arm front/ rear caster blocks/ bushings
5. cone air filter replaced
6. fuel filter replaced
in the past few weeks:
7. drove the car hard everywhere all summer.
8. Bilstein Rear shocks replaced w/ Koni adj shocks.
9. interior, carpets detailed/ rinse & repeat
10. Leather/carbon trim polished (~every couple of weeks)
11. shift boot given a glue seam (sight unseen) to maintain
good contact w/ center console trim & lessen ride noise.
12. installed a switch for dedicated ECU circuit
fuel and ECU now each have their own high current circuits that stay cool.
(ignition relay eliminated).
13. oil changed
14. transmission oil changed
15. 993 Xenon lights ground wires/bolts refreshed
after passenger side 6000K lamp went 'intermittent.'
On the near horizon to-do list:
1. change brake fluid
2. replace steering column u-joint
3. fix low hydraulic pressure (a trip to see Karl Wilen/
a.k.a. Porschedoc on Rennlist, in Grandview, Missouri)
4 install firewall/clutch brace
5. motor mounts replaced (a conundrum: not confident updated mounts w/ improved
urethane bushings will perform over the long haul in such a confined space.
6. Update rear hatch female latch/receptors haha (Faye Dunaway voice)
7, Leather dash replacement for dash
(on the occasion of a future cracked windshield).
The bad
1. my brake calipers front and back needed rebuilding, and a lot of brake dust
cement sludge removed that had built up over 7 years since installing the
928GTS big blacks (fixed early on, But the installer actually thought the LS7
was suffering a massive power defect at manufacture from Scoggin Dickey.
The cars sit sometimes. unavoidable. weird stuff happens to our brakes/lines,
where stuff gets petrified. You should be able to tell when stuff gets so hot
smoke is coming off.....
2. failed to properly insulate starter wire from headers you could see the
starter wires getting fried (fixed early on).
You should plan ahead and anticipate heat issues if doing this type of work.
3. Gen 1 TPC motor mounts that should go 50~70k miles: they began to fail
after a few thousand miles. In the months after i purchased the mounts,
the Gen 2 motor mounts appeared: So, does the installer bother to update the
[rubber to urathane] on his own product? come on man!
This should have been anticipated in the early design phase.
replacing the mounts is a p.i.t.a.
4. Stage 2 clutch slave/throwout bearing/hydraulic pressure is totally
inadequate to match the Spec Stage 2 clutch demand.
5. forgot to leave me with functional heat temperature controls
heat was stuck OFF
6. forgot to re-connect the factory _________. to embarrassed to say it.
7. forgot to install something else (_______) very important.
(it's too embarrassing to mention).
8. forgot to torque the bolts down where the exhaust connects to the headers.
someone was smart enough to point out the exhaust leak. The car quieted
right down! how many K miles did i drive before he.... Do you recall a certain
used parts guy posting a thread entitled, "should i part it?"
General thoughts about the V8 swap:
On the highway, twisties or reasonably smooth tarmac i am beside myself.
it is mostly a joy to drive this car.
Overall, the original installer did a reasonably good job on the swap,
Hydroboost braking system & cooling.
But he neglected a few things that were/have been a pain in the *** to resolve
1. engine install quality/ overall grade: good/excellent
2. time to do the work: FAIL
2. hydroboost power brake system/ lines: spectacular
3. serpentine water cooling: perfect
4. exhaust/ via massive Y-pipe and the meticulous work to modify the
large 1 7/8" headers, incorporate 3 mufflers/ straight pipe system: SPECTACULAR job that elevates form & function.
5. oil cooler/ locating/incorporating w/ front valence lines: standout work: 10/10
helps elevate the car to the "next level."
6. the helper i had in California (now a resident in the California penal system)
did a fine job replacing the cv joints, strut mounts, wheel bearings, shocks, bushings,
push-button starter, etc... i drove the 43,000 miles and trashed the aging set of shocks,
M030.2 sway bar (center mounts) and steering U-joint failed.
motor mounts wore down very early on, which adds some unwanted vibration at idle.
The car has had some weight taken off the front via the headlamp upgrade,
and factory driving lights removal (taken together, add up to many unwanted pounds)!
Those weight reductions are probably nullified about 1:1 by the engine swap & 993/997
body mods/ putting a few pounds back on after those heavy stock lights came off.
The car and suspension takes a pretty good beating running thousands of miles
of interstate on 255/285-35-18 tires.
i prefer to wait for at-home mechanics to do well-timed updates, but sometimes
issues will persist a bit over the service intervals.....
Try to keep the car out of the shop.
My general thoughts about the V8 swap:
On the highway, twisties or reasonably smooth tarmac i am beside myself.
it is mostly a joy to drive this car.
Overall, the original installer did a reasonably good job on the swap,
Hydroboost braking system & cooling.
But he neglected a few things that were/have been a pain in the *** to resolve
1. engine install quality/ overall grade: good/excellent
2. time to do the work: FAIL
3. hydroboost power brake system/ lines: spectacular
4. serpentine water cooling: perfect
5. exhaust/ via the big Y-pipe and meticulous work to modify the
large 1 7/8" headers, incorporate 3 mufflers/ straight pipe system: Eric Hill did a SPECTACULAR job to elevate form & function.
6. oil cooler/ locating it w/ the front valence + lines: standout work: 10/10
helped elevate the swap to the "next level."
7. the helper i had in California (now a resident of the California penal system)
did a fine job replacing the cv joints, strut mounts, wheel bearings, caliper rebuilds,
shocks, bushings, push-button starter, etc...
i drove about 43,000 miles and trashed the aging set of shocks,
The M030.2 sway bar/ center mounts (installed in 2015) + steering U-joint failed.
TPC engine mounts wore down very soon, which added some vibration at idle.
The car has had some weight taken off the front via the headlamp delete/993 upgrade,
and later, eliminated thefactory driving lights.
(taken together, they add up to considerable unwanted pounds.
Those weight reductions were nullified by the engine swap. The 993/997 body mods
also put a few pounds back on the car. The car & suspension takes a pretty good beating
running thousands of miles of interstate on 255/285-35-18's.
i prefer to wait for at-home mechanics to do well-timed updates, but sometimes
issues will persist a bit over their service intervals.....
The bad: (when i got the car back from the V8 installer in 2015)
1. my brake calipers front and back needed rebuilding, and a lot of brake dust
cement sludge removed that had built up over 7 years since installing the
928GTS big blacks (fixed early on, But the installer actually thought the LS7
was suffering a massive power defect at manufacture from Scoggin Dickey.
The cars sit sometimes. unavoidable. weird stuff happens to our brakes/lines,
where stuff gets petrified. You should be able to tell when stuff gets so hot
smoke is coming off.....
2. failed to properly insulate starter wire from headers you could see the
starter wires getting fried (fixed early on).
You should plan ahead and anticipate heat issues if doing this type of work.
3. Gen 1 TPC motor mounts that should go 50~70k miles: they began to fail
after a few thousand miles. In the months after i purchased the mounts,
the Gen 2 motor mounts appeared: So, does the installer bother to update the
[rubber to urathane] on his own product? come on man!
This should have been anticipated in the early design phase.
replacing the mounts is a p.i.t.a.
4. Stage 2 clutch slave/throwout bearing/hydraulic pressure is totally
inadequate to match the Spec Stage 2 clutch demand.
5. forgot to leave me with functional heat temperature controls
heat was stuck OFF
6. forgot to re-connect the factory _________. to embarrassed to say it.
7. forgot to install something else (_______) very important.
(it's too embarrassing to mention).
8. forgot to torque the bolts down where the exhaust connects to the headers.
someone was smart enough to point out the exhaust leak. The car quieted
right down.
recently completed:
1. Front Koni adjustable struts/ inserts
2. New center M030.2 sway bar mounts (factory mounts installed in 2015 cracked)
3. Fresh sway bar bushings, (M030.2 front & Weltmeister rear)
4. Fresh control arm front/ rear caster blocks/ bushings
5. cone air filter replaced
6. fuel filter replaced
in the past few weeks:
7. drove the car hard everywhere all summer.
8. Bilstein Rear shocks replaced w/ Koni adj shocks.
9. interior, carpets detailed a few times.
10. Leather/carbon trim polished (often)
11. shift boot given a glue seam (sight unseen) to maintain
good contact w/ center console trim & lessen ride noise.
12. installed a switch for dedicated ECU circuit
fuel and ECU now each have their own high current circuits that stay cool.
(ignition relay eliminated).
13. oil changed
14. transmission oil changed
15. 993 Xenon lights ground wires/bolts refreshed
after passenger side 6000K lamp became 'intermittent.'
On the near horizon to-do list:
1. change brake fluid
2. replace steering column u-joint
3. fix low hydraulic pressure (a trip to see Karl Wilen/
a.k.a. Porschedoc on Rennlist, in Grandview, Missouri)
4. install firewall/clutch brace
5. motor mounts replaced (a conundrum: not confident updated mounts w/ improved
urethane bushings will perform over the long haul in such a confined space.
6. Update rear hatch female latch/receptors haha (Faye Dunaway voice)
7, Leather dash replacement (when i get a cracked windshield).
06-26-2020, 02:30 PM
spot on! btw, i think Josh ended up with some other supercar variant.
