968 Timing Belt - Now car is scrap??
05-11-2009, 03:15 PM
#16
This is the repair that we all dred... and there are no easy answers to the question you pose.
From an emotional standpoint fixing the car seems kind of reasonable. But from an economic standpoint it makes very little sense. Who would logically decide to put $10k into a car worth slightly less than that? These days for $10-12K you can buy a nice 968 with significantly less miles. I have seen nice Boxsters for not much more. Part out the old car and the profit could drop the new car a few more thousand.
Now, faced with the same problem I might make the emotional choice. But it would probably be the wrong choice.
From an emotional standpoint fixing the car seems kind of reasonable. But from an economic standpoint it makes very little sense. Who would logically decide to put $10k into a car worth slightly less than that? These days for $10-12K you can buy a nice 968 with significantly less miles. I have seen nice Boxsters for not much more. Part out the old car and the profit could drop the new car a few more thousand.
Now, faced with the same problem I might make the emotional choice. But it would probably be the wrong choice.
05-12-2009, 11:32 AM
#17
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My 968 is much too nice to ever considering parting it out...so I'd be faced with some tough choices....maybe even buying another 968, putting that engine in mine...and parting out the OTHER ONE.
But first, I'd look for a used engine from a wrecking yard. If you have your engine rebuilt, you then have to make sure that the rebuilder is really good. Not many professed mechanics for our cars are that good.
H2
But first, I'd look for a used engine from a wrecking yard. If you have your engine rebuilt, you then have to make sure that the rebuilder is really good. Not many professed mechanics for our cars are that good.
H2
05-12-2009, 01:40 PM
#18
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Thanks for all the posts - some general information.
The car is located in northern Virginia. It's a white 1995 tiptronic with black interior that I picked up with 99,000 miles on it. I initially put in about $5k of repair work replacing out all the worn items including timing belt, etc. I use it as my daily driver and over the past several years have put on about 54,000 miles. I keep it in good shape with routine maintenance. Last year I had to replace the back window. The old one literaly shattered into tiny pieces (have no idea why - car was parked) and replaced that with a 944 piece of glass that I picked up from a salvage yard. That was a project and a half!! While the two pieces of glass are the same, the brake lighting differs. I've upgraded the wheels to 16" and put on the Continental Conti Extreme tires which give it a great combination of ride comfort and handling as well as rain and light snow traction.
Kit_Chris - putting a 944 turbo in it is interesting, but I imagine that would be a lot of work and bet there's a whole bunch of little things (the devil is always in the details) that would cause headaches (you would need a mechanic that really understands the car).
Luis de Prat - the overall condition is a daily driver with 150k miles - it has some dings, etc. It's been a great car that's been a pleasure to drive. I wouldn't call it rough, but it's not a trailer queen.
Damian in NJ - a V8!! Same comments as Kit_Chris - a lot of work - plus more than I can spend at this time.
Mark944na86 - let me address the honest mechanic part first - I've been dealing with Curry's and they've always done good work for me. They explained to me more than I needed to know about the variocam engine in the 968 and the interference between the pistons and the valves. Based on our initial discussions we haven't done the work to take off the belt and figure out what broke nor have we opened the engine to take a look at the damage. The question for me is the need to spend $$$$ to find out that I need to spend a lot more or to call it quits with the knowledge given based upon their experience and the thoughts of this group (who probably have a lot more specific knowledge specific to the 968 than the folks at Curry's). I changed when I picked it up at the 99,000 mileage mark - so it had 50k on the belt.
MichelleJD - I found out with this one, that there's always a bunch of expenses when picking up a used porsche - as mentioned earlier, I put in about $5k of unplanned work when I bought my current 968. I know what's right/wrong with this car - if I sell it, not sure what is a fair price and I think it's always hard to let go.
Isinlv - I've thought about using a technical school - how cool would it be for the students to work on a Porsche - issue would be length of time, but I have my truck to drive (although it's a gas guzzler - I was getting 24-26 mpg with the 968 versus 12-14 with the truck). I guess my biggest obstacle to going in this direction is finding a tech school and how to go about the process of having them perform the work.
sh944 - Car is in Ashburn, VA - if it is just bent valves, any estimates on the cost?
Lemming - not sure if that helps me or not???
StewHatch - I agree to a point - it's been a great driver
FRporscheman - What was the end result $$$$ wise on replacing the 2 valves and the "while you're in there" work?
H2 - in regards to putting in a "new" engine from a scrap yard - the question always becomes is if the "new" engine is any good or if there are unknown problems from whatever caused the car to go to the scrapyard. Repairing what gremlins you know are better in my opinion than getting ones you don't.
The car is located in northern Virginia. It's a white 1995 tiptronic with black interior that I picked up with 99,000 miles on it. I initially put in about $5k of repair work replacing out all the worn items including timing belt, etc. I use it as my daily driver and over the past several years have put on about 54,000 miles. I keep it in good shape with routine maintenance. Last year I had to replace the back window. The old one literaly shattered into tiny pieces (have no idea why - car was parked) and replaced that with a 944 piece of glass that I picked up from a salvage yard. That was a project and a half!! While the two pieces of glass are the same, the brake lighting differs. I've upgraded the wheels to 16" and put on the Continental Conti Extreme tires which give it a great combination of ride comfort and handling as well as rain and light snow traction.
Kit_Chris - putting a 944 turbo in it is interesting, but I imagine that would be a lot of work and bet there's a whole bunch of little things (the devil is always in the details) that would cause headaches (you would need a mechanic that really understands the car).
Luis de Prat - the overall condition is a daily driver with 150k miles - it has some dings, etc. It's been a great car that's been a pleasure to drive. I wouldn't call it rough, but it's not a trailer queen.
Damian in NJ - a V8!! Same comments as Kit_Chris - a lot of work - plus more than I can spend at this time.
Mark944na86 - let me address the honest mechanic part first - I've been dealing with Curry's and they've always done good work for me. They explained to me more than I needed to know about the variocam engine in the 968 and the interference between the pistons and the valves. Based on our initial discussions we haven't done the work to take off the belt and figure out what broke nor have we opened the engine to take a look at the damage. The question for me is the need to spend $$$$ to find out that I need to spend a lot more or to call it quits with the knowledge given based upon their experience and the thoughts of this group (who probably have a lot more specific knowledge specific to the 968 than the folks at Curry's). I changed when I picked it up at the 99,000 mileage mark - so it had 50k on the belt.
MichelleJD - I found out with this one, that there's always a bunch of expenses when picking up a used porsche - as mentioned earlier, I put in about $5k of unplanned work when I bought my current 968. I know what's right/wrong with this car - if I sell it, not sure what is a fair price and I think it's always hard to let go.
Isinlv - I've thought about using a technical school - how cool would it be for the students to work on a Porsche - issue would be length of time, but I have my truck to drive (although it's a gas guzzler - I was getting 24-26 mpg with the 968 versus 12-14 with the truck). I guess my biggest obstacle to going in this direction is finding a tech school and how to go about the process of having them perform the work.
sh944 - Car is in Ashburn, VA - if it is just bent valves, any estimates on the cost?
Lemming - not sure if that helps me or not???
StewHatch - I agree to a point - it's been a great driver
FRporscheman - What was the end result $$$$ wise on replacing the 2 valves and the "while you're in there" work?
H2 - in regards to putting in a "new" engine from a scrap yard - the question always becomes is if the "new" engine is any good or if there are unknown problems from whatever caused the car to go to the scrapyard. Repairing what gremlins you know are better in my opinion than getting ones you don't.
05-12-2009, 01:49 PM
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I think something to add on this subject matter...
$2k and the wife complains - goes in one ear and out the other
$3k and the wife moans and groans - takes quite a bit of "honey-do" items and sacrificing other toys/events
$4k and the wife rants - probably sleeping on the couch
$5k and up I might as well make the car my permanent home
$2k and the wife complains - goes in one ear and out the other
$3k and the wife moans and groans - takes quite a bit of "honey-do" items and sacrificing other toys/events
$4k and the wife rants - probably sleeping on the couch
$5k and up I might as well make the car my permanent home
05-12-2009, 02:23 PM
#20
Yep, I just sold my super clean 92 for about $11k. ALL of the major issues had been addressed recently. A friend of mine here has the same issue with his 968. He considered doing a V8 conversion (not my style) but decided against it. I think he's looking to sell it as it sits now and is trying to get an idea on what it's worth too. It's tough to price these cars as it is IMO, then consider the broke motor and this economy doesn't make it better. Fortunately, I didn't have to sell my car for any reason other than to start a new Porsche project. I thought I sold it at a fair price, buyer felt he got a good deal as well. Everybody was happy.
05-12-2009, 05:04 PM
#21
Rick, these can be great dd's, but the gotcha's can hurt.
If you have the ability to work on them yourself, it can be fairly economical to repair it, but with your mileage, I'd suggest (and I am sure Curry's probably would too) that you should replace the camshafts and the variocam unit at the time you are doing the r&r. New prices from Porsche put the parts cost well above "unaffordable" for most of us, but if you look around, you can find some decent used camshafts (I know someone who was recently selling a set for around $500, not sure if he still has them). New variocam is around $1400, last time I checked, and I have never seen anyone selling a good used one. Add in $300ish for machine work on the head, plus the cost of the replacement valves to replace the bent ones and valve guides and seals (you'll do all of those), gasket set, and then all the front engine stuff, and you are at an easy $3000.00 before you've bolted on your first part, assuming that your shortblock is good. Add in labor and this becomes a pretty quick $6000 job at a shop. You can examine and reuse the cams if they are in good shape, but my experience leads me to believe that won't be the case.
I realize thats a sobering assessment of the situation. Compound the problem with the fact that most folks don't want a tip in their 968 (which I don't understand, as I love mine), and it puts you in the proverbial "rock and a hard place". Trust me, I feel for you. Your best bet would most likely be to get another dd, and roll up your sleeves and dive in on the repairs on this one yourself, with the help of Rennlist, KCWS (you'll find we can be pretty helpful if you are asking questions) and the local PCA. Get some local folks, host a wrenching party or two, and you might be back on the road faster than you think. These cars, contrary to popular belief, are actually pretty straightforward to work on.
I'd LOVE to buy your car and drop a turbo in it, but I need to sell cars a this point, not add to the collection!
Regards,
If you have the ability to work on them yourself, it can be fairly economical to repair it, but with your mileage, I'd suggest (and I am sure Curry's probably would too) that you should replace the camshafts and the variocam unit at the time you are doing the r&r. New prices from Porsche put the parts cost well above "unaffordable" for most of us, but if you look around, you can find some decent used camshafts (I know someone who was recently selling a set for around $500, not sure if he still has them). New variocam is around $1400, last time I checked, and I have never seen anyone selling a good used one. Add in $300ish for machine work on the head, plus the cost of the replacement valves to replace the bent ones and valve guides and seals (you'll do all of those), gasket set, and then all the front engine stuff, and you are at an easy $3000.00 before you've bolted on your first part, assuming that your shortblock is good. Add in labor and this becomes a pretty quick $6000 job at a shop. You can examine and reuse the cams if they are in good shape, but my experience leads me to believe that won't be the case.
I realize thats a sobering assessment of the situation. Compound the problem with the fact that most folks don't want a tip in their 968 (which I don't understand, as I love mine), and it puts you in the proverbial "rock and a hard place". Trust me, I feel for you. Your best bet would most likely be to get another dd, and roll up your sleeves and dive in on the repairs on this one yourself, with the help of Rennlist, KCWS (you'll find we can be pretty helpful if you are asking questions) and the local PCA. Get some local folks, host a wrenching party or two, and you might be back on the road faster than you think. These cars, contrary to popular belief, are actually pretty straightforward to work on.
I'd LOVE to buy your car and drop a turbo in it, but I need to sell cars a this point, not add to the collection!
Regards,
05-12-2009, 05:19 PM
#22
Race Car
Yep, I just sold my super clean 92 for about $11k. ALL of the major issues had been addressed recently. A friend of mine here has the same issue with his 968. He considered doing a V8 conversion (not my style) but decided against it. I think he's looking to sell it as it sits now and is trying to get an idea on what it's worth too. It's tough to price these cars as it is IMO, then consider the broke motor and this economy doesn't make it better. Fortunately, I didn't have to sell my car for any reason other than to start a new Porsche project. I thought I sold it at a fair price, buyer felt he got a good deal as well. Everybody was happy.
05-13-2009, 12:30 AM
#24
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How sure are you that the timing belt broke? It might have been a variocam system issue if the ramps and chain had not been replaced. It's pretty easy to whip the cam cover off and see what's up in there.
You might get lucky and it might just need cams and variocam work.
Obtaining a head and swapping it on would probably solve your problems either way. If the cams need to be rebuilt or replaced that adds to the cost.
And the cost? At a shop probably $5k. Unless you are lucky and the valves are OK and it just needs cams and whatnot... and you can get the cams rebuilt or score some used ones.
It's sort of a wash, if it still ran it'd be worth $7k ish in this market (maybe less) with a bad motor maybe $2k, $5k to fix... if you would be happy to have the car back and with a bunch of engine work done it might be worth fixing. If you could DIY it'd be worth fixing. If it's rough or in fair condition and you have to pay for repairs I'd say probably let it go. Unless it's not as bad off as they say.
Sorry
-Joel.
You might get lucky and it might just need cams and variocam work.
Obtaining a head and swapping it on would probably solve your problems either way. If the cams need to be rebuilt or replaced that adds to the cost.
And the cost? At a shop probably $5k. Unless you are lucky and the valves are OK and it just needs cams and whatnot... and you can get the cams rebuilt or score some used ones.
It's sort of a wash, if it still ran it'd be worth $7k ish in this market (maybe less) with a bad motor maybe $2k, $5k to fix... if you would be happy to have the car back and with a bunch of engine work done it might be worth fixing. If you could DIY it'd be worth fixing. If it's rough or in fair condition and you have to pay for repairs I'd say probably let it go. Unless it's not as bad off as they say.
Sorry
-Joel.
05-13-2009, 04:13 AM
#25
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How many years ago was the belt done, if you don't mind me asking? 54K miles in itself is not excessive, and normally you wouldn't have expected a belt with that many miles to break unless it was getting on in age as well...
05-13-2009, 11:44 AM
#26
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I know that 54K miles may not seem to be so much for the 968 but the 928 guys generally recommend a belt replacement at 40K miles or if the WP is being replaced...or every 5 years, whichever comes first. Of course, the 928 belt is longer and more prone to issues, I'd think. When I bought my 968 it had 25K miles on a new belt and WP but I replaced them both anyway just to be safe. Doing the work myself it wasn't bad costwise. It's a lot cheaper to do premptive PM on a good engine than take chances. These cars work great when maintained well.
Also, if you're having someone else do the work, you have to make sure they're conscientious about that work. I gave up trying to find a good mechanic within 250miles of here and do it all myself now. At least, I know who to blame. On my first Pcar I tried several area mechanics, finally going to Seattle (300 miles away...trailer the car) and wasn't satisfied then either due to some sloppy work (bolts not tightened...or left out). DIY is not a bad idea on these older cars. Treat them right and they'll go forever.
I don't even know RAJ...but that's one guy I'd trust to work on my car and know that it's done right...but I think he just works on his own rigs.
Also, one needs to make sure that the belts is always in proper tension. I check mine 1000 miles after a new install then every spring. The front belt is pretty loosey goosey anyway and not always easy to adjust. The auto tensioners can go bad I guess. I replaced mine just to make sure...then checked the TB tension with the Porsche tension tool...not by "feel" like some mechanics do.
Admittedly, I'm ****, but I also like the confidence of knowing the car can go anywhere, anytime.
H2
Also, if you're having someone else do the work, you have to make sure they're conscientious about that work. I gave up trying to find a good mechanic within 250miles of here and do it all myself now. At least, I know who to blame. On my first Pcar I tried several area mechanics, finally going to Seattle (300 miles away...trailer the car) and wasn't satisfied then either due to some sloppy work (bolts not tightened...or left out). DIY is not a bad idea on these older cars. Treat them right and they'll go forever.
I don't even know RAJ...but that's one guy I'd trust to work on my car and know that it's done right...but I think he just works on his own rigs.
Also, one needs to make sure that the belts is always in proper tension. I check mine 1000 miles after a new install then every spring. The front belt is pretty loosey goosey anyway and not always easy to adjust. The auto tensioners can go bad I guess. I replaced mine just to make sure...then checked the TB tension with the Porsche tension tool...not by "feel" like some mechanics do.
Admittedly, I'm ****, but I also like the confidence of knowing the car can go anywhere, anytime.
H2
05-14-2009, 01:34 AM
#28
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Rick:
I'm having to put a new engine in my car as well. FYI, while it took a while, I found a complete 968 engine with 44K miles for about $4K delivered. To the extent that it helps, in a few weeks I may have a 1991 944S2 head and DME available that only have 77k miles on them. You lose the Vario-cam, but they will work with your engine and may constitute a cost-effective repair.
Greg
I'm having to put a new engine in my car as well. FYI, while it took a while, I found a complete 968 engine with 44K miles for about $4K delivered. To the extent that it helps, in a few weeks I may have a 1991 944S2 head and DME available that only have 77k miles on them. You lose the Vario-cam, but they will work with your engine and may constitute a cost-effective repair.
Greg
05-14-2009, 05:21 AM
#29
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Rick,
I feel for you! This is something that I know would crush me emotionally since my car is a daily driver and I love it. I have about 108+ miles on mine and admittedly I worry about the what if's. I know that I am at the age where anything can happen even though I take good care of my car. I have already had to deal with the pinion bearing issue twice.
My 968 is not a garage queen and get's plenty of road wear and tear. It would be a hard decision to make given the choices of market value, cost, etc. On one hand I love my car because it is unique and stands out not to mention being a Porsche. On the other hand I know that it's market value is low due to the amount of miles I have on the car.
I have always thought that if I had to rebuild the engine for some reason I would make it a 3.2 liter or turbo charge it. However, coming up with the money or even trying to get a loan to do this would be difficult considering the overall age and value of the car. The conservative part of me would probably look at getting a new car given the costs involved. There are a lot of great cars for the money right now with great financing. The liberal part of me would probably want to get it fixed regardless of the cost because of the bond I have with the car.
In the end, I do not envy the choices that you will have to make. I can only hope that I do not have to make the same one anytime soon. I wish you the best of luck and hope that whatever the outcome you can live with it.
I feel for you! This is something that I know would crush me emotionally since my car is a daily driver and I love it. I have about 108+ miles on mine and admittedly I worry about the what if's. I know that I am at the age where anything can happen even though I take good care of my car. I have already had to deal with the pinion bearing issue twice.
My 968 is not a garage queen and get's plenty of road wear and tear. It would be a hard decision to make given the choices of market value, cost, etc. On one hand I love my car because it is unique and stands out not to mention being a Porsche. On the other hand I know that it's market value is low due to the amount of miles I have on the car.
I have always thought that if I had to rebuild the engine for some reason I would make it a 3.2 liter or turbo charge it. However, coming up with the money or even trying to get a loan to do this would be difficult considering the overall age and value of the car. The conservative part of me would probably look at getting a new car given the costs involved. There are a lot of great cars for the money right now with great financing. The liberal part of me would probably want to get it fixed regardless of the cost because of the bond I have with the car.
In the end, I do not envy the choices that you will have to make. I can only hope that I do not have to make the same one anytime soon. I wish you the best of luck and hope that whatever the outcome you can live with it.
