Pointers to interesting new airbox mod.
10-18-2005, 11:44 AM
#31
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
glad you liked it - told you it would be easy
not sure how much "idea" was involved - pretty much a normal kind of thing i do on every car i have - i figure it was for dave too, since, when i called him after the testing at my house, we discovered we both had the same thoughts about opening it up - chicken - egg - not sure
anyway, this is defintely a no brainer, if you can get used to the noise, and race legal, since you can do anything forward of the filter - happy to have helped out
not sure how much "idea" was involved - pretty much a normal kind of thing i do on every car i have - i figure it was for dave too, since, when i called him after the testing at my house, we discovered we both had the same thoughts about opening it up - chicken - egg - not sure
anyway, this is defintely a no brainer, if you can get used to the noise, and race legal, since you can do anything forward of the filter - happy to have helped out
10-18-2005, 02:27 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
The trim rings have held up nicely and even disguised the butch-o hole-sawing job that I did.
Ted's spot on here. Take all the info you can gather and form your own opinions. Like they say, YMMV.
Personally, I appreciate the work the boys did on this, especially presenting their specific findings and data. From there we all get to add kernels of information to use as inputs into our individual decision-making process.
Ted's spot on here. Take all the info you can gather and form your own opinions. Like they say, YMMV.
Personally, I appreciate the work the boys did on this, especially presenting their specific findings and data. From there we all get to add kernels of information to use as inputs into our individual decision-making process.
10-19-2005, 07:46 PM
#37
Still curious - if all it takes to obtain more power from the 968 3.0L is the addition of a few holes to the airbox, why didn't Porsche design an airbox with an open face - or build the airbox with holes, slots, louvers, etc., already there?
What's the downside of this "improvement"? Microscopic crap entering the intake, which eventually gets to the engine internals, leading to poor performance and very expensive repairs?
Any guesses?? (Please no conspiracy theories about how 968 performance was intentionally limited by Porsche's braintrust so as not to compete with the 993 "flagship"). I mean, we're talking 4 holes here, no?
Richard
What's the downside of this "improvement"? Microscopic crap entering the intake, which eventually gets to the engine internals, leading to poor performance and very expensive repairs?
Any guesses?? (Please no conspiracy theories about how 968 performance was intentionally limited by Porsche's braintrust so as not to compete with the 993 "flagship"). I mean, we're talking 4 holes here, no?
Richard
Last edited by richard glickel.; 10-20-2005 at 12:38 AM.
10-19-2005, 08:00 PM
#38
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 3,619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Richard-
Porsche ALSO had things OTHER than performance in mind when designing the 968. It is quite a bit louder with the airbox cut out. One of the reasons for such a restrictive intake system was to keep the engine quieter.
I would imagine that with this modification you can expect your air filter to get dirtier quicker.
Is that the information you are looking for?
Porsche ALSO had things OTHER than performance in mind when designing the 968. It is quite a bit louder with the airbox cut out. One of the reasons for such a restrictive intake system was to keep the engine quieter.
I would imagine that with this modification you can expect your air filter to get dirtier quicker.
Is that the information you are looking for?
10-19-2005, 08:29 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Do keep in mind that specific work (output) went up a lot with this motor, WHILE gaining in efficiency (both mileage and emissions). There's a great write-up on the 968 motor development goals and process in Up-Fixen-der-Porsche.
They even optimized the exhaust gas flows across the catalyst to improve light off during start-up... I mean, invested real money and time into it!
Lots of design considerations baked in. I suspect a key one was avoiding "snorkeling" of water from any potential fresh air source.
They even optimized the exhaust gas flows across the catalyst to improve light off during start-up... I mean, invested real money and time into it!
Lots of design considerations baked in. I suspect a key one was avoiding "snorkeling" of water from any potential fresh air source.
10-20-2005, 01:57 AM
#40
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
exactly - as i have said, they had a lot of things to consider when putting this car together - people don't seem to realize that engineers desgining a car work in segments - each segment works indepentently without necessarily the benefit of knowing what the other segment is doing - one look at the airbox and radiator deflector will tell you that - also, there are a lot of restrictions to adhere to - noise standards are just one - add to that the fact that this was a patch project that was cancelled and resurrected, way over budget, and not a lot of sales to help it out, and you get a less than optimal finished product - there are quite a few areas where it looks like they just went with what they had, and really could have done better - no worries - that's the fun of this car - when i bought mine i did so with the idea "this is a car with a good platform that i can rip apart and make right"
there is really no chance of anything damaging getting into your engine - the filter does a fine job, when properly oiled (and i cannot stress enough the term "properly") - the filter stops far smaller particulates than your mahle oil filter, and such particulates in the combustion chamber are not an issue, as they are combusted long before they could get into the rest of the engine
i hear the water question a lot - there are so many things that the water would have to get past, all of which break up the water, that the only thing possibly getting to the filter are small drops , even in a hurricane, and then the filter breaks them up in to a mist - this is a GOOD thing - remember water injection? ever notice how much faster your car is in the wet weather? a little water in the intake equals more power - we should hope for water, not fear it - i'm planning on adding water injection this spring - i've done it for years with great success
there is really no chance of anything damaging getting into your engine - the filter does a fine job, when properly oiled (and i cannot stress enough the term "properly") - the filter stops far smaller particulates than your mahle oil filter, and such particulates in the combustion chamber are not an issue, as they are combusted long before they could get into the rest of the engine
i hear the water question a lot - there are so many things that the water would have to get past, all of which break up the water, that the only thing possibly getting to the filter are small drops , even in a hurricane, and then the filter breaks them up in to a mist - this is a GOOD thing - remember water injection? ever notice how much faster your car is in the wet weather? a little water in the intake equals more power - we should hope for water, not fear it - i'm planning on adding water injection this spring - i've done it for years with great success
10-20-2005, 08:27 AM
#41
To a casual reader who doesn't know these cars the above may make a lot of sense. However, when Porsche started in on the 944 replacement, things were pretty rosy. That how the 968 ended up with a)first 6 speed tranny in a Porsche production car b)engine with much more hp (236 vs 208), higher rev limit, higher compression, first Porsche with Variocam), under piston oil squirters, forged pistons, etc etc c)vastly improved night lighting with 928 style headlamps (big difference over the 944) and d)a platform, especially in CS form, that is considered, even today, one of the best handling front engine/rear drive ever built.
What killed this car was a recession, and the fact that the manufacturing methods were still old school-very labor intensive. When Porsche changed to newer technologies they were able to sell the 993 for less $$$ than the 964 that preceded it-which also is why the Boxster was cheaper upon introduction than the last 968s.
To say that Porsche started out with a good platform and now you're going to 'make it right' is pretty funny-Porsche obviously has to contend with government mandated rules and so forth-and the long term effects of any chassis changes/engine mods, both for emissions and longevity-they'd have put an airbox modified engine on the dyno for weeks to see if such a change would damage the motor-so we don't know what will happen long term to anyone who has done this.
I'm as much a fan of improving my car as anyone else, but it's important to know that often, there is no free lunch-you just never may know when the payback is.
What killed this car was a recession, and the fact that the manufacturing methods were still old school-very labor intensive. When Porsche changed to newer technologies they were able to sell the 993 for less $$$ than the 964 that preceded it-which also is why the Boxster was cheaper upon introduction than the last 968s.
To say that Porsche started out with a good platform and now you're going to 'make it right' is pretty funny-Porsche obviously has to contend with government mandated rules and so forth-and the long term effects of any chassis changes/engine mods, both for emissions and longevity-they'd have put an airbox modified engine on the dyno for weeks to see if such a change would damage the motor-so we don't know what will happen long term to anyone who has done this.
I'm as much a fan of improving my car as anyone else, but it's important to know that often, there is no free lunch-you just never may know when the payback is.
10-20-2005, 12:27 PM
#42
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i didn't say they didn't make improvements over the 944 - they did - i am fully aware, and if you had read any of my posts, have been the one saying all along that they had a lot to deal with - still, there was enough there to start with as a project car - i am just not constrained by the things they were
the car is a nice car, but i think they could have gone a lot further if the public could have accepted the concept (they probably would have brought over the turbo) - they left a lot on the table - thta's good news to me - i am really enjoying developing this car
i may not end up with a car that everyone would like - that's fine - i'm after the performance version of the car, and not the heavy and sloshy road car they came up with, with all its soft rubber bushings and double insulation and underpowered motor (should have been closer to the magic 10:1 lb/hp) - i'm going to turn the nice comfy road car into a sports car - as a convertable 2 seater, that's what it cries out to be
as for long term damage, any mod that increases load or work will increase wear - you have to know that going in - it doesn't matter if it's stiffer struts and springs or a turbo - physics are physics and they all increase work and load - that doesn't make any of it wrong, or change the concept that it makes the car "right" if you are after the optimum performance in the car
the car is a nice car, but i think they could have gone a lot further if the public could have accepted the concept (they probably would have brought over the turbo) - they left a lot on the table - thta's good news to me - i am really enjoying developing this car
i may not end up with a car that everyone would like - that's fine - i'm after the performance version of the car, and not the heavy and sloshy road car they came up with, with all its soft rubber bushings and double insulation and underpowered motor (should have been closer to the magic 10:1 lb/hp) - i'm going to turn the nice comfy road car into a sports car - as a convertable 2 seater, that's what it cries out to be
as for long term damage, any mod that increases load or work will increase wear - you have to know that going in - it doesn't matter if it's stiffer struts and springs or a turbo - physics are physics and they all increase work and load - that doesn't make any of it wrong, or change the concept that it makes the car "right" if you are after the optimum performance in the car
10-20-2005, 12:51 PM
#43
And I guess there are people who take Lotus 7's and make them more road worthy-each to his own. That 'heavy and slodgy' road car is still the benchmark for roadholding and handling for many in stock form. If I wanted a Lotus 7 then I'd buy one-they certainly blow by every 968, even a CS M030 on slicks, that I've seen at a couple of UK track days. And also, it wouldn't hardly have cost them a nickel to build the car with a turbo, blowing away any normal 968-but it would have not made the aircooled guys very happy so it was flushed.
10-20-2005, 12:51 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by flash968
underpowered motor (should have been closer to the magic 10:1 lb/hp)
I doubt you will find many if any.
Raj
10-20-2005, 01:19 PM
#45
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no, you wouldn't have found much, and certainly not in the price range of this car - if this car had sold better, they probably would have imported the turbo, and it would have been in that category
none of that changes the validity of that "magic number" - it just means that the others were also lacking - such was that period - that's why i didn't buy any new car at that time - cars today are much better at making that number - there are many out there today that exceed it
really, what i was looking for was something with a little character and exclusivity, that was a 2 seat, manual trannie, front engine, rear drive car, at about 2700lbs, and with 275 hp or so, and a power top and AC (the latter 2 eliminated the lotus and other such cars) - no such car existed - this one happened to be closest to fitting the bill (on the assumption that i could lighten it up enough and add a few ponies) and at 28.5k 2 years ago, was very cheap (still cheap at today's prices) - that meant i was only going to have to spend 60-70k to build the car - those are the qualifiers for a "good platform" from which to start
we all chose this car for different reasons - mine were its platform - somebody else would be for its practicality - yet somebody else would be for its reputation - others for looks - all are fine reasons
none of that changes the validity of that "magic number" - it just means that the others were also lacking - such was that period - that's why i didn't buy any new car at that time - cars today are much better at making that number - there are many out there today that exceed it
really, what i was looking for was something with a little character and exclusivity, that was a 2 seat, manual trannie, front engine, rear drive car, at about 2700lbs, and with 275 hp or so, and a power top and AC (the latter 2 eliminated the lotus and other such cars) - no such car existed - this one happened to be closest to fitting the bill (on the assumption that i could lighten it up enough and add a few ponies) and at 28.5k 2 years ago, was very cheap (still cheap at today's prices) - that meant i was only going to have to spend 60-70k to build the car - those are the qualifiers for a "good platform" from which to start
we all chose this car for different reasons - mine were its platform - somebody else would be for its practicality - yet somebody else would be for its reputation - others for looks - all are fine reasons