Ro_3.3T

Hi Guys,

I have purchase a nice Guards Red 92" 964 3.3T on light grey, only a few weeks ago and am looking to do some restoring and engine upgrades along with other here and there stuff. I would love to hear more about your setups and what power you have been able to get with your mods and how drivable.

I originally wanted to get a safe/drivable 350-400WHP but Im told the best way to go about that would be an EFI update?

I would like to approach the upgrades by taking the CIS as far as I can with bolt on mods and cams first. After this phase the engine should be sound and gone through in the event I go with an EFI setup. I would love to see pics and here more about the EFI stuff also when time permits.

Thanks
R

stu.p

No need to go EFI for that kinda power as me as many another has proved!

Best mod first is to remove your cat with a cat bypass,,this will release some power(maybe 20 bhp) and improve sound and reduce lag!....Next you could raise your boost level to just below 1 bar(max i would take it to on standard original headbolts).Headers also will possibly also add some HP...Next best thing would be to get your AFR's set up properly and in my opinion not just by turning the CO screw up richer,properly set up with aid of modified WUR/rpm switch or even the road i went down and produce your own fuel controller whilst still keeping CIS inj then programme to suit your application!..I have modified/set up numerous 3.3 turbos whilst mantaining CIS with great results.

These mods will give you not too far away from that lower hp number although cams and headwork will defo get you in that region although require at least engine top end stripdown!

Stuart

Porsche inspector within UK for Peter Morgan.
http://www.porscheinspections.com/
964 turbo-Rebuilt using ARP hardware and other mods.
Purpose built fuel controller to produce perfect fuel curve on cis injection

al 965

Ro_33T . are you in the states ?

Metal Guru

Stu is correct on which components to attack.
I'd change the order a little.
Overhaul the fuel system first. Have Brian Leask rebuild your WUR with the heavy-duty diaphragm and check the spray pattern of your injectors. If any are bad, buy new ones. Don't waste you time trying to clean them. This will insure that you can raise your boost safely and that you are getting the most out of CIS.
Then bump the boost but don't bother going over .9 bar as that is the max for the stock K27-7200 turbo and the stock head bolts. Buy RarlyL8 headers and muffler and a hotter turbo and now your stock engine is at the end of bolt-on mods. Install a boost gauge so that you know what boost you are running at.
I have a Leask WUR and have rehabilitated my CIS. I replaced 3 injectors and checked fuel distribution to insure that the fuel to each cylinder is identical. For exhaust I have an M&K dual wastegate headers based on 993 heat exchangers with a RarlyL8 muffler and JoeP manual boost controller. My boost gauge says I'm running the .9 bar.
Still trying to figure out what I'm going to do to it next.....

Ro_3.3T

al 965,
Im in Germany for now

stu.p

Agree with Paul(metalguru)
My order with mods was presuming all was functioning correctly to start with!

When running more boost and then tuning your fuel curve whichever route you go down with CIS,brian leask adj wur etc,,,,aswell as checking injector spray pattern or purchasing new injectors i would recommend flow matching them also, i.e simulate wide open throttle with the meter plate and measure volume to each cylinder is the same per 30 sec tests.....This will then ensure that if your target AFR(Air/fuel mixture) may be 12.0 to 1 as a combination of all 6 cylinders then you know you are 12.0 at each individual cylinder
On a customers car i set up recently, his fuel volume measured nearly a 12% variation from lowest cylinder volume to highest,,i then adjusted via the meter head to within 2% variation then i could tune his car throughout the whole fuel curve correctly where the most power could be made with the safety in knowing there would be no detonation at any cylinder!
Also it will obviously benefit mpg,prevent bore wash and engine wear also!
To get nearer 400whp you will be looking at an engine drop so you can include cams and head work,then whilst in there ARP headbolts or similar(standard head bolts are prone to snapping,especially with higher boost pressures)...When your in this deep you might aswell do a top end rebuild if it hasnt already been done recently!

If its a euro spec car you could get over 400whp if you were also to include a larger turbo at that stage.The standard k27 7200 turbo starts to run out of puff over 400whp.

If i remember there is a company called goingsuperfast that supplies a DIY style EFI kit if you feel the need to go down that road...Do a search in google or on here and am sure they list costs etc however please allow ££££ extra for obvious dyno time for mapping(tuning) the new management..

Paul how do you find the 993 header set up and from what are you comparing it to..Did you have for example aftermarket headers previously e.g b&b or was in stock system..
when do you see full boost and in what gear etc compared to before,any cams/headwork etc?
sorry for all the questions and hopefully info still helps the original poster

Metal Guru

It was something I had thought of and tried to get Brian (RarlyL8) interested in. Eventually Ben (M&K) and I decided to do a few. It wasn't bolt on; I had to design and make oil lines and and some exhaust pieces. Cost was around $1600 including heat exchangers.
Prior to this I had stock exhaust. Boost threshold dropped from 3000 rpm to 2400 rpm and is all in at 3000 rpm. The rest of the engine is stock (for now) but I may do 964 cams in the spring.

al 965

I agree with stu on the cat delete being a big start to freeing up HP that you already have and just don't know about. The fuel system is proably the next thing I would look @. Before I did any thing I would spend a little and buy a wide ban o2 sensor and afr guage to see what your fuel system is doing as you make your mods. I would look into the fuel control system that Stu has, if not that I would go with the digital WUR to control the fuel system. I run the digital system and love it as it is so simple to use and I don't have to take it off and tap a plunger in or adj a screw and then see how I did and if not take it back off and do it again . Stu can advise you more than me as his system I have read about and know it works also and he has used both his and the digital one and I think he switched back to his. You have a nice car and you will love having it LOL

Ro_3.3T

Thanks for the info guys. There is a learning curve for me right know so please understand my crazy questions when they start to show up.

How does Stu's system work and please tell me what the digital setup does. links will help too

R

al 965

Go over to pelican parts fourm on the 930 /super charge turbo fourm and in the search box type in digital wur and you will find all the reading you can handle about it . I think STU has posted on there how his works as well and there is things about the adj. mechanical wur also on there. LOL

JamesE

I'll save you a stack of cash. Just go straight to EFI + top-end rebuild. You'll end up doing it anyway, but at least this way you don't cover the same ground twice. You can then do the bolt ons after, like exhaust etc...

You wont agree with me now, but you will in a few years

Metal Guru

Without a better breathing engine, all EFI will give you is a nice idle.
EFI is a big commitment. It will narrow down the field of prospective buyers by a lot when it's time to sell (and let's face it, almost none of us will keep these cars forever). It's not for everybody.

JamesE

Bah.

Top end would include some porting and cams. Plus you have the fuel to add a bloody big turbo which you wouldn't with CIS. Many ways to skin a cat, its seems i always choose the least efficient and most expensive...

Ro_3.3T

I did do some research about doing an EFI but dont want to spend that much time and money on a mod that would kinda take me further away from its original state and possibly hurt the resale. I love these models sooo much we will have to see how long I hold onto it! Who knows EFI mods may be a common preference in 5 years for older cars. Again all Im after is 350-400 RWHP

How can I get in contact with Brian Leask for the CIS rebuild? any website

Will have to contact Stu in regards to digital wur setup. UTCIS™ Engine Management

what muffler options do you have with the rarly8 headers? I dont like the zork stuff and want to keep dual exhaust tips in the stock positions. just looks clean!

I like the look of the Fabspeed complete setup but dont know much about the quality and fit of the products? Dont want to be dealing with fit issues here.

Looking at using the Tial wg and FVD Billet Diverter Valve (Reinforced)

looking into a turbo thats better at the moment? dont think I will need a k29 for what Im after.

Last would be the Cams?

stu.p

Just a quick response here for now!

I would keep you standard rear silencer in place(no performance gains replacing) and just go for cat bypass to start with(investigate for best deal as its basically just a straight thru pipe,fabspeed,FVD??..ebay?) sounds perfect in my opinion and not too loud.,,,After the turbo charger the 964t set up is different from the 930 one so zork or rarely rear muffler is not what your after!
If getting new headers then look at new wastegate...(rarely headers seem they could be best pick of the bunch but yet no dyno figures to prove)
New diverter valve is good mod but not a hp one.

If then you decide to up the boost pressure,,BEFORE this i would then purchase AFR data logging equipment e.g zeitronix is my favourite,,zt-2 model, and at same time address any issues with fueling as mentioned above i.e injectors/test etc including modded WUR etc BEFORE you start to put the foot down with your higher boost setting

Simply do a search for brian leask on google and you will get contact that way if you plan on that route..
Most important thing is address your fuelling first if you plan to increase boost pressure or you will most definately do extreme damage to your engine.
Personally i think whether you decide to increase boost or not ,my advice and metal gurus on testing injectors etc is still very important!

"Without" EFI and just bolt on's(which includes headwork/cams) you can see over 400whp and 25++ mpg(obviously not at the same time)..My car runs far better/smoother than standard and does the figures qouted above!
Proper tuning CIS is what is needed.