X-1

I'm gonna jump in here and speak up rather than just lurking.
I first had Bilstein sports and H&Rs on my S4 and they were ****. Undersprung and underdamped, and a real mistake once I had that car making serious horsepower. I then went to PSS9s on that car and they were AMAZING. The spring rates were fairly conservative compared to Koni-based setups, and used progressives out back, but the overall package worked really well. My only regret was the proprietary springs. Like the 911, the S4 suffered from severe weight bias (only on the other end) and the trick with that car was tweaking the spring rates to tailor front-vs-rear roll stiffness. I don't hear anything comparable here about the 965. Do the 965 PSS9s offer any spring choices?

frayed

OK guys, drove a modded example of a 3.3L.

Short story. Great car in many aspects but rubber band response of turbo, even when on boost, makes this car a particular challenge for hard charging. A bit unsure on whether the obvious pluses outweigh the inherent single turbo RWD, rear engine challenges.

Long story.

Specs:

EFI conversion
Garrett ball bearing turbo (GT35R)
Turbo S cams
BB headers, running cats
Stock IC
Ltw fly
468 rwhp

All work done by Chris at Turbokraft. Mechanicals were meticulous BTW.

This is really the first aircooled Porsche I've driven. There is a lot to like: tank-like chassis integrity, looks, compactness. Controls are great; though bottom mounted pedals will take some getting used to. It is as expected for the vintage of the car. I love the old school feel. The simplicity of everything. While driving this car, a p/u slowed down and pulled to right lane to give me a thumbs up. Another paced me in my blind spot, much like people did when I was in the ferrari. I guess folks just don't see that many old school widebodies around.

The sound was awesome too, along with all the attendant whirs and whistles come from the back.

Steering responsive. Suspension was soft, too soft for me. Coming from razor sharp cars in the past, I'd consider a high zoot set of Motons to tame the low speed weight transfer (front to rear) upon acceleration and give the chassis much more immediacy. [I love these shocks for their high speed damping ability as well, leading to decent ride quality even at higher spring rates.]

HOWEVER:

The main thing that gives me pause is the turbo lag. It is a mixed bag, really. Here's my experience.

At 2500 rpm, you nail the gas. Then one one-thousand two one-thousand three one-thousand. Finally, the needle sweeps to 4000 rpm then:

WHAMMMM! Two big sledgehammers full to torque shred the rear tires. Car squats and rear tires squirm looking for purchase on the pavement. Bang into rev limiter, grab second, full throttle. One one thousand. . . WHAM! car gets squirrely again. Hit rev limiter, grab third, quick chirp everything whizzing by like mad.

This is hilarity. You cannot help but to laugh your azz off as you run a car like this through its paces.

OTOH, while the lag before boost is somewhat annoying, the real problem I could tell from my test drive is driving this car on challenging twisty roads. Especially on roads, more so than on track where you run under controlled conditions, you have to get all your timing just right. You need to stay on boost, which means choosing gearing so you don't drop below 4k rpm. Even at high rpm, as you breath off the gas and start to roll back into the throttle, there's a rubber band response from the motor. I found myself getting into the gas and backing off quite a bit, as the rapidly ramping tq was hard to manage.

This is the opposite of the razor sharp throttle response on my GT3s of past and my current track car, running individual throttle bodies, where minute throttle changes are hardwired to rear wheel torque.

While I expected this sort of response, until I drove one of these cars, I just did not have appreciation for the challenges of the combination of monster, ramping non linear tq delivery, rwd, rear engine, all wrapped in an older chassis.

But it was great fun. I'm still leaning on picking one up but still unsure. I don't want to spend absurd amounts of money for a car that is more 'perfect' (been there, done that), but struggle with choices along the handling/power continuum (e.g., a Cayman with suspension vs a modded 965) VERY different beasts but nevertheless appealing in the under 60k Porsche market.

Cheers all.

nathanUK '81 930 G50

That is why I didn't bother to sell my 3.2 carrera, I enjoy the throttle response compared to my 930.

eyue

That is also why I am keeping the 3.2 Carrera and the 964 Turbo !! I've tried replacing the Cat with a by-pass pipe for the turbo, and throttle improved ! Less turbo lag........

Olli

While you'd never get it to be like a N/A car, the turbo lag until 4000 RPM sounds like it could be remedied. My custom Ball Bearing GT3582R hits boost at exactly 3000RPM every time. The cost of my GT35R was not bad either ($1278).

frayed

Olli, the way I see it, there are two issues:

- lag until rpms rise. this is annoying but not a huge deal if you keep rpms up
- lag even at high rpm, as you breathe off throttle and get back on under hard charging

It is the latter, the rubber band response that has me more concerned actually. Let's say you are ripping through a corner at 6,000 rpm, rear end starts getting a little loose due to power on oversteer. You want to lift slightly to regain traction and then gently squeeze the gas back on. This sequence can be a challenge and erodes driver confidence.

Or lets say you are ripping though a corner and car gets a bit loose b/c you aren't on the gas enough. Typical trailing throttle oversteer condition in a 911. You roll on at 5000 rpm; lag in tq response makes rear traction *really* interesting for a moment, then boost builds. Rear wheel tq locks you down but as you overshoot throttle application, you get into power on oversteer.

Either case or variations of these, I forsee lots of sawing at the wheel to keep the shiny side up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bagging on the car, just trying to have discussion about the realities of the beast. How 'blunt' this car is relative to the more modern chassis.

911addict

Strange choice for your first drive of an air-cooled 911, never mind a single turbo model.

I'd also say that a modded monster which lags until 4000 is not the most user friendly. A well-set up 965 with sensible mods will pull nicely all the way, and handle well in (almost) all conditions. (Of course do not be heavy footed in the wet.)

PS: in the list of mods you gave, no mention of suspension...

Sorry Frayed, I am of the opinion that a driver who likes a 996/997 even a GT3 will be unlikely to enjoy an old school 911 and vice versa. Good luck trying out these different cars.

Olli

Thanks for the good picture you described on both of those concern-scenarios. I agree that it is a challenge. For myself what you described is part of the thrill factor that is addicting and attractive - a constant 'dare' if you will. While you may improve the handling by some modifications, these are cars that admittedly do not compare with the later models' handling qualities but they are great fun.

Looking forward to following this thread to find out what you end up getting

frayed

Addict,

- Why a strange choice? The 965 is IMO the most beautiful aircooled car you can buy, and can make lotsa power.

- Stock suspension I believe. 40k on the clock.

The 997 GT3 was my favorite and I loved the car. Though I don't understand why you think there's a divide b/t the aircooled cars and the newer ones. There are plenty of folks out there who own and enjoy both simultaneously, including particularly the 964 Turbo and the 997 GT3.

Olli, thanks.

911addict

Hi Frayed,
I meant strange, as its not just a 965 that you tried, but a 468rwhp monster.

Stock suspension is not great, again not on an even more powerful 965. And the 3.3 suspension is much worse than the 3.6.
Why not try a standard 3.6 965, or a street modified 3.3/3.6? I'm sure you'd find it much more flexible, and a better measure for your choice.

PS: Its not water cooled that's different for me, its that time (progress?) difference. For me a newer model looks good and goes fast(er) but is not as involving (less harsh, difficult, demand respect etc.) I'm not saying either is better. But I do say that for me, and most who drive these 930/965's love the feel. And friends who drive 996/997 will never like my car on a day to day basis.

frayed

addict, well I definitely do like the old school feel, though I'm not so sure I could live with one on a daily basis. . . I'm looking for a weekend car. There's something about the materials, simplicity and mechanical feel that is absent from the new cars, so I know what you mean.

My main concern revolves around managing power delivery in situations other than a straight line.

Megatron-UK

Have you driven many turbo's at all? Not just 911's, but anything from the 80's or 90's in general?
The turbo response you're describing is not something that is particular to the 930 or 964 Turbo - driving anything from the era before sequential fuel injection, or before any of the mid-90's Japanese turbo motors were introduced (eg 200SX, MR2, Supra) is going to get you exactly the same thing.
Personally the power delivery on these cars is a big draw for me - I've come from the multi-valved, low-lag japanese and european turbo engine world and while I cannot argue with their superior design and outright performance; there's a lot to be said for the old-school sledgehammer style power delivery of these and other late 80's and early 90's cars.

PTurbo965

frayed - It doesn't sound like the car you drove had the best setup possible for these cars. I've only been in one EFI conversion, but it spooled up before 3k rpm - and it got to 2700k REALLY FAST.

Do you want a heavily modded car for weekend driving? I think you should drive a stock 3.6 with the boost coming on at around 3500rpm and see what you think.

I think the smoke got in your eyes on your test drive above.

frayed

Nope. Virtually 0 experience with old school turbos.

No doubt. Except when you add turbo lag and inelastic throttle response to the rear engine, rwd chassis of the 911, things get a bit more *interesting* IMO.

Understood. Which is why I'm here today. I just consider the power delivery both before boost and even up on boost to be a mixed bag.

I think that's correct. The car was a compromise, as the exhaust and IC were not well matched for the balance of the of the mods.

I saw a surge of boost at 3300 rpm but not the full hit till 4k rpm. Modded? Yeah, provided it is really well done and sorted.

Not sure what you mean, like rose colored smoke?

JBH

You have to remember he (Frayed) has driven a 997 GT3 and 996 GT3. The handling and throttle response are impressive in those models.

I find your description of performance and handling to be pretty much dead on. To drive a turbo requires time - not something you are likely to learn in a test drive. For most drivers, the n/a cars are going to feel and probably be faster in the turns. A close ratio transmission helps, but you are correct about the non-linear nature of acceleration.

That said, the turbo offers a different type of driving experience - at least that's why I own one. I like diversity and the 965 probably represents one end of the spectrum. Given the stability and in some cases appreciation in prices, you can own one, drive it for awhile and move to something else if you don't like it or you tire of what it offers.

Huh? What makes you think that?