Need expert opinions here.

what type of heel-toe is most appropriate with the 964 pedal config? both?

the true hell-toe


this one (heard BMW instructors say to use this one instead)


I really have a hard time with the former one, it's odd to lift the feet off the floor as it seems to really unbalance the braking pressure. I end up braking way too hard or not enough... I guess practive makes perfect.
On my old car I used the second technique which was easier I think.

your comments/opinions?

 

I heal toe every car like #2. From early 911's to late 911's, 944's, bmw's, etc. Tilting my foot at an angle like #1 has always been really awkward.

 

Agree with Doc, if your foot is wide enough, it's a lot faster and easier to use method #2. If you've got small feet, I can see #1 working, but I've never had a problem with method #2, and it's awkward for me to try and move my foot around the footwell to be able to use method #1.

 

you guys have stock pedals in your 964? (stock pedal, spacing and braking "depth")?

when your brake pedal is flush with the gas pedal, is the car under light or heavy braking?

 

I replaced mine with a hargett adjustable pedal and will never go back.

Link here: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...-in-964-a.html

As to heel and toe in general. I learned on a 1985 Subaru GL hatchback 2wd, with 65 horsepower, and if you think porsche pedals are a bad setup, holy moly. Heel and toe, as practice, is simply a way to downshift under hard braking, when each wheel is already at it's grip limits, to not put further stress on the drive wheels of the car, in which case they would lock and you then aren't braking as quickly and if you head into or are already in a corner, you lose grip....you figure out a way that works for you and your car and figure out, then, how to do it smoothly, and you are set. There isn't a right or wrong way. There is only better or worse for each driver/car combo.

That said, I went from the Subaru to a formula ford 2000, and that was my first experience with a car designed to drive hard, and the pedals required a completely different set of skills. And it was easier.

So, long story short. The porsche pedal setup as stock is only slightly better than that subaru, and will never quite be as right as the formula ford. But that hargett pedal upgrade is fantastic.

 

+1 for method number 2. I use it every day in my M3 and on my 86 Targa. Works great on the track too. I did have to raise the gas pedal on my 911 to make it work.

 

Method 1 is what I use if a gas pedal that is hinged at the top, if it's hinged at the bottom like a Porsche then I find I am basically pressing my heel on the hinge of the pedal so instead method 2 (rolling you foot over) gives more accurate control of the blip.

 

I'm having another Porsche gas pedal mounted right on top of the existing pedal. This is what my friend uses in his 964 race car and he says its all you need. I'm going to see if that improves things and otherwise there is always the Rennline adjustable gas pedal.
I find it really hard to use eiher method as things are now with the standard setup.

 

That's what I did and it helped a lot.

 

Stock pedals, though the adjustable pedals will help many heel toe.

 

I find it nearly impossible to achieve either mode on the street.. I'm just not driving hard enough or near the limit.. so I feel way out of practice in either... When I do get a chance to push it pretty hard, I have tried both with limited success... I have aftermarket pedals so there is a big section of the accelerator pedal down low (as in #1)

I have a question about how to adjust the pedals. The stock setup has a rod that can accommodate some adjustment, so should the pedals be 'level' with each other when the brake is pushed in pretty hard (near the limit of adhesion)? So that would mean when at rest, the brake is some distance higher right?

One other dimension to this is how *much* to attempt to blip the throttle. From rest (idle) It takes a bit of persuasion to get the car to rev, even with a LWF, but I do find that it will rev quite lively when going from 3K RPM to like 4.5- 5 ... so how precise are you all being about this.. is it just a blip to do it, or are you really building the skills to match revs? Let's be honest!...

 

I think porsche pedals are super well setup from factory ...
But I only realized this after really learning how to H&T w/o losing brake pressure

And your question is important ... HT is not [edit:] AS useful at low speed or in traffic etc...
It needs to be at speed and under heavy braking (as much as we often do it in slow driving for practice/fun)
And then you'll find your foot is far enough down on the brake to make the
Roll (my preference) or heel swivel easy.

W/o hard braking ie low pedal you're fighting mismatched heights
And if you setup or alter pedals for those, it won't work on track when you actually need it most

Check YouTube for some foot cams .. They helped me a lot

 

To address Tom's question: As long as the blip produces enough RPM to match the road speed - at the precise moment the clutch is re-engaged, you've done enough. No real harm in over blipping as long as it's not excessive.

The faster we go, the more aggressively we brake, the more "tender" the car's balance is, of course. For this reason, it becomes more important that the blip honestly produces enough RPM. I'll address the more important part of H/T a bit later...blipping is easy.

I disagree with the concept that HiWind introduces here; that lower speed blipping produces nothing.

For virtually ALL drivers I've encountered both at DE events where I instruct and during private track days where I coach, heel/toe remains an issue. As folks enter the stages where they begin to go quickly on the track, braking feel (both application and release) becomes one of the most important skills yet to develop (and usually the very last basic skill one develops).

For this reason, I believe that ALL drivers should H/T ALL of the time until it becomes intuitive (really intuitive). Low speed H/T allows the driver to practice while maintaining a softer feel on the brake and a better feel for lightness on both pedals. It also forces the driver to work on technique; as stated, the "roll" or whatever movement of the foot one needs, is more difficult when the brake pedal is not down lower where it would be during more aggressive slowing.

As mentioned above, more important than the blip itself (as long as it produces enough RPM), is the braking aspect of the operation. As we speed up on track and as velocity at the end of the straight increases and corner entry becomes faster, we also brake more closely to the limits of adhesion.

It is THIS aspect of the H/T operation which seems to be the toughest for folks to master. Braking while not selecting a lower gear and braking while going down one, two or three gears should be the same...only a lifetime of constant practice under all conditions can help achieve this.

 

I suppose it's down to the individual....

 

I agree w Kai.

As to pedal setup...keep in mind that we all have different size feet, knees and ankles that move differently, different seating positions etc...so you need to play with the adjustable pedal and come to some compromise.

While true that on a dry track, you would press hard on the brake and the pedal would have a far travel, but on a wet track, where smooth heal and toe is even more important, you won't be pressing as hard on the pedal and you may then have the same pedal travel as hard street driving. So in terms of setup, if you aren't driving on a dry track all the time, come to a good compromise and then just learn to be smooth with whatever you choose.

Anyway. I am a fan of the rennline adjustable and the hargett adjustable pedals, over a simple overlay, but anything is better than stock...but stock works too if you work at it..just not as easy to be smooth and consistent..