Motronic v Motec
08-15-2013, 06:54 PM
#17
Racer
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We need someone to make something like this for the 964 http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/augtronic
Its for the 944 but they run a similar ECU in many ways; Motronic ML3.1 vs M2.1, I was talking to some 944 guys at Donington about this, not looked in detail, but at first glance this guy has done something rather clever. Standard box with new guts, so you can use Alpha-N, MAP (speed density) or MAF (mass flow) for load measurement, keep the knock control and all sorts of other fun toys for about a grand.
Its for the 944 but they run a similar ECU in many ways; Motronic ML3.1 vs M2.1, I was talking to some 944 guys at Donington about this, not looked in detail, but at first glance this guy has done something rather clever. Standard box with new guts, so you can use Alpha-N, MAP (speed density) or MAF (mass flow) for load measurement, keep the knock control and all sorts of other fun toys for about a grand.
08-15-2013, 07:04 PM
#18
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As I said previously, if you can do it to expert standards without having to pay an expert, that's great. Credit people with the wisdom to know their own limitations.
08-15-2013, 07:11 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
In our mostly capitalistic economies, at least when it comes to services and private consumers, the phrase "you get what you pay for" is generally true.
08-15-2013, 07:14 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
You get what you pay for...sure you can get it done cheap, but then you can't complain if it takes three goes to start it, or if it kangaroos in slow traffic, or if it runs dangerously lean on a hot day
08-15-2013, 07:35 PM
#21
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£1000 Labour
£1185 M84 ecu (recently reduced from £1495)
£500 9m M84 to 964 wiring adapter & sensor extension harnesses (sensor harness obliviates the need to modify the original Porsche wiring loom)
£560 9m Fuel injector x 6
£345 Motec Lambda sensor, AT sensor, TPS sensor, MAP sensor
£295 9m Stainless steel air intake pipe & K&N cone filter
£175 Hardware: TPS plate & machined shaft, MAP plate, Vacuum lines, brackets, fasteners
Total £4060+VAT
For Motec being fitted to an ITB engine we recommend that you have a custom wiring harness made from the M84 to the engine rather than using the stock Porsche loom. This would cost an additional £500. The loom is made in-house from lightweight Raychem aircraft grade wire, fully encapsulated with heat proof heat shrink, labelled and terminated with new Bosch plugs.
£1185 M84 ecu (recently reduced from £1495)
£500 9m M84 to 964 wiring adapter & sensor extension harnesses (sensor harness obliviates the need to modify the original Porsche wiring loom)
£560 9m Fuel injector x 6
£345 Motec Lambda sensor, AT sensor, TPS sensor, MAP sensor
£295 9m Stainless steel air intake pipe & K&N cone filter
£175 Hardware: TPS plate & machined shaft, MAP plate, Vacuum lines, brackets, fasteners
Total £4060+VAT
For Motec being fitted to an ITB engine we recommend that you have a custom wiring harness made from the M84 to the engine rather than using the stock Porsche loom. This would cost an additional £500. The loom is made in-house from lightweight Raychem aircraft grade wire, fully encapsulated with heat proof heat shrink, labelled and terminated with new Bosch plugs.
08-15-2013, 07:51 PM
#22
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A good friend of mine runs a company that does mapping for tuner cars but also big name car manufactures & I know he spends many hours mapping cars to get them right & often when he's given a car by a manufacture he often lives with the car on a Daily basis on the dyno & road to get it spot on so I can understand why it's not cheap but it's certainly not expensive when you cost it all down in time/parts/knowledge...
08-16-2013, 04:47 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
Most if not all supporters of using Motec do so because they find it a simple platform to modify which sits nicely with other tuning parts they offer.
Most if not all supporters of Motec cannot modify the Motronic system because they cannot use the Hex language it requires. Do not confuse this with Motec being superior to Motronic as it is not.
The knock control issue has been raised, but also the OBD offered by Motronic is also lost when Motec is used. The key component to raising power is new injectors and these will run quite happily on Motronic, largely making the case for Motec redundant.
Most if not all supporters of Motec cannot modify the Motronic system because they cannot use the Hex language it requires. Do not confuse this with Motec being superior to Motronic as it is not.
The knock control issue has been raised, but also the OBD offered by Motronic is also lost when Motec is used. The key component to raising power is new injectors and these will run quite happily on Motronic, largely making the case for Motec redundant.
08-16-2013, 05:27 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
You don't need to edit the ROM by hand there are a few people that have figured out the addresses so you can use a ROM emulator and Tuner Pro or this:http://www.pro2dme.com/sc_shots.htm
The Motronic in a 964 does have advanced knock control for the era it comes from but the motec knock unti is just as good if expensive.
You loose OBD but you gain CANBUS which is a world better.
Our old Motronic is held back by the limitations of the injection control, ignition control, load sensing (throttle switch rather than proper tps, and barn door AFM). People have figured out the transfer function to properly use a MAF now but you still have the other limitations, which is why that Augtronic thing is interesting, they have completey re written the micro controller code, add a proper tps and a big maf or map sensor and away you go. But as with a few aftermarket ecus you are putting your faith in the genius and continuing interest of one man.
Motec is expensive not just in terms of numbers but in terms of value compared to equally competent competitors. The value comes in the brand and in the specialists that trust it and can do a good job with it. That said it really isn't terrible value for money. The difference in price is not a big deal if you genuinely get something perfect delivered. But that isn't guaranteed I have seen Motec installs that run worse than a cheap ROM chip job.
The Motronic in a 964 does have advanced knock control for the era it comes from but the motec knock unti is just as good if expensive.
You loose OBD but you gain CANBUS which is a world better.
Our old Motronic is held back by the limitations of the injection control, ignition control, load sensing (throttle switch rather than proper tps, and barn door AFM). People have figured out the transfer function to properly use a MAF now but you still have the other limitations, which is why that Augtronic thing is interesting, they have completey re written the micro controller code, add a proper tps and a big maf or map sensor and away you go. But as with a few aftermarket ecus you are putting your faith in the genius and continuing interest of one man.
Motec is expensive not just in terms of numbers but in terms of value compared to equally competent competitors. The value comes in the brand and in the specialists that trust it and can do a good job with it. That said it really isn't terrible value for money. The difference in price is not a big deal if you genuinely get something perfect delivered. But that isn't guaranteed I have seen Motec installs that run worse than a cheap ROM chip job.
08-16-2013, 05:45 AM
#27
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...........Our old Motronic is held back by the limitations of the injection control, ignition control, load sensing (throttle switch rather than proper tps, and barn door AFM). People have figured out the transfer function to properly use a MAF now but you still have the other limitations, which is why that Augtronic thing is interesting, they have completey re written the micro controller code, add a proper tps and a big maf or map sensor and away you go. But as with a few aftermarket ecus you are putting your faith in the genius and continuing interest of one man.
Motec is expensive not just in terms of numbers but in terms of value compared to equally competent competitors. The value comes in the brand and in the specialists that trust it and can do a good job with it. That said it really isn't terrible value for money. The difference in price is not a big deal if you genuinely get something perfect delivered. But that isn't guaranteed I have seen Motec installs that run worse than a cheap ROM chip job.
Motec is expensive not just in terms of numbers but in terms of value compared to equally competent competitors. The value comes in the brand and in the specialists that trust it and can do a good job with it. That said it really isn't terrible value for money. The difference in price is not a big deal if you genuinely get something perfect delivered. But that isn't guaranteed I have seen Motec installs that run worse than a cheap ROM chip job.
08-16-2013, 05:59 AM
#28
Burning Brakes
You don't need to edit the ROM by hand there are a few people that have figured out the addresses so you can use a ROM emulator and Tuner Pro or this:http://www.pro2dme.com/sc_shots.htm
The Motronic in a 964 does have advanced knock control for the era it comes from but the motec knock unti is just as good if expensive.
You loose OBD but you gain CANBUS which is a world better.
Our old Motronic is held back by the limitations of the injection control, ignition control, load sensing (throttle switch rather than proper tps, and barn door AFM). People have figured out the transfer function to properly use a MAF now but you still have the other limitations, which is why that Augtronic thing is interesting, they have completey re written the micro controller code, add a proper tps and a big maf or map sensor and away you go. But as with a few aftermarket ecus you are putting your faith in the genius and continuing interest of one man.
Motec is expensive not just in terms of numbers but in terms of value compared to equally competent competitors. The value comes in the brand and in the specialists that trust it and can do a good job with it. That said it really isn't terrible value for money. The difference in price is not a big deal if you genuinely get something perfect delivered. But that isn't guaranteed I have seen Motec installs that run worse than a cheap ROM chip job.
The Motronic in a 964 does have advanced knock control for the era it comes from but the motec knock unti is just as good if expensive.
You loose OBD but you gain CANBUS which is a world better.
Our old Motronic is held back by the limitations of the injection control, ignition control, load sensing (throttle switch rather than proper tps, and barn door AFM). People have figured out the transfer function to properly use a MAF now but you still have the other limitations, which is why that Augtronic thing is interesting, they have completey re written the micro controller code, add a proper tps and a big maf or map sensor and away you go. But as with a few aftermarket ecus you are putting your faith in the genius and continuing interest of one man.
Motec is expensive not just in terms of numbers but in terms of value compared to equally competent competitors. The value comes in the brand and in the specialists that trust it and can do a good job with it. That said it really isn't terrible value for money. The difference in price is not a big deal if you genuinely get something perfect delivered. But that isn't guaranteed I have seen Motec installs that run worse than a cheap ROM chip job.
The limitations of the AFM are nothing to do with the Motronic, but it should be remembered that a MAF can be used with Motronic quite easily and effectively.
The fact is that there are very few people capable of tuning the Motronic system. This should not be confused with the system not being good enough to compare with Motec. Motec is not good value for money imo.
VR6-er.. The new injectors simply give higher flowrates and a finer spray pattern.
08-16-2013, 06:29 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Everyone uses CANBUS these days. It blows OBD out the water http://www.talktomycar.co.uk/can.htm
The motronic is built around flow sensing (afm) not mass sensing (maf) the calculations required to meter fuel vs air are different and require a range of different adjustments and inputs. MAF is much simpler and more flexible in changing conditiond both in the engine and environment.
Rescaling the injector multiplier is indeed not a problem in motronic. Its one number. You may need to change the null time/ latency at the same time though depending on the new injector characteristics.
You can do plenty with the Motronic don't get me wrong. For the realistic power you would get out of all but the wildest M64 you could probably get it to do a decent job if you found someone really good to do it.
But if you spend 15k on an engine for 100bhp gain, a couple of grand on an ecu to get the most out of it seems sensible.
my two nissans are 60 and 100bhp over stock and both use the standard ecu with a ROM edit, in one case mapped by me, another by a real expert who fits uprev, syvecs and link g4s all day long, his view was for the small gains i was after the standard ecu would do fine. BUT the nissans use MAF off the shelf and have a really friendly calibration layout, and some great well tested ROM editing gear.
The motronic is built around flow sensing (afm) not mass sensing (maf) the calculations required to meter fuel vs air are different and require a range of different adjustments and inputs. MAF is much simpler and more flexible in changing conditiond both in the engine and environment.
Rescaling the injector multiplier is indeed not a problem in motronic. Its one number. You may need to change the null time/ latency at the same time though depending on the new injector characteristics.
You can do plenty with the Motronic don't get me wrong. For the realistic power you would get out of all but the wildest M64 you could probably get it to do a decent job if you found someone really good to do it.
But if you spend 15k on an engine for 100bhp gain, a couple of grand on an ecu to get the most out of it seems sensible.
my two nissans are 60 and 100bhp over stock and both use the standard ecu with a ROM edit, in one case mapped by me, another by a real expert who fits uprev, syvecs and link g4s all day long, his view was for the small gains i was after the standard ecu would do fine. BUT the nissans use MAF off the shelf and have a really friendly calibration layout, and some great well tested ROM editing gear.
Last edited by alexjc4; 08-16-2013 at 07:19 AM. Reason: I underestimated the power-ups on the datsuns a little
08-16-2013, 06:47 AM
#30
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Most if not all supporters of using Motec do so because they find it a simple platform to modify which sits nicely with other tuning parts they offer.
Most if not all supporters of Motec cannot modify the Motronic system because they cannot use the Hex language it requires. Do not confuse this with Motec being superior to Motronic as it is not.
The knock control issue has been raised, but also the OBD offered by Motronic is also lost when Motec is used. The key component to raising power is new injectors and these will run quite happily on Motronic, largely making the case for Motec redundant.
Most if not all supporters of Motec cannot modify the Motronic system because they cannot use the Hex language it requires. Do not confuse this with Motec being superior to Motronic as it is not.
The knock control issue has been raised, but also the OBD offered by Motronic is also lost when Motec is used. The key component to raising power is new injectors and these will run quite happily on Motronic, largely making the case for Motec redundant.
The most experienced hex tuner in the country, Wayne Schofield, works from our premises. At the end of the day we would not sell the 9m Motec conversion if we could achieve the same results with Motronic. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, we leave it up to the individual client to make his own decision following advice from both myself and Wayne but generally will offer the most cost effective solution for their needs.