Engine rebuild needed...
05-05-2013, 07:53 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
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I think the £5k number for top end is about what redtek or unit 11 will charge and they have good reputations. mine leaks oil but just make sure I keep an eye on the level. no smoke though. try and negotiate a cash deal as that will save you the dreaded vat on top.
05-05-2013, 06:05 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
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Jack, I had a pretty thorough top end done at Jaz last year, which included big ends, piston rings, ARP head studs and rod bolts, RS clutch and flywheel, some oil lines and tin ware, various bits powder coated and zinc plated, engine fan painted and RS single pulley and more and cost to me was just under £7K. It's a lot of dosh, my engine feels great and looks great but £7K is £7K! Especially as I also spent £2.5K on bodywork at the same time...
I've recently bought a BMW X3 SD for the missus, the twin turbo diesel version. Really fast car but I was getting a stumble under load. My BMW specialist recommended a BG engine 'regeneration'. I thought it sounded like bollocks but as he was offering it for free as the BG rep was trying to sell my specialist the kit so I thought, why not? The rep spent a whole day 'cleaning' the innards of my engine, decoking the DPF and adding various treatments to it, I have no idea what he did exactly. The X3 now feels much better and no stumbling now whatsoever. Pulls like a train and my exhaust tips and insides are as clean as the outside - and I polish them a lot!
I know it's a diesel with a DPF and different situation but these BG Products seem a big deal in the US where cars do much higher mileages. Many people say using their products revives their engine and staves off a rebuild for a long time. If you're happy with the performance, all I'm saying is check it out. You've nothing to lose if it doesn't work but I too think we're too quick to chuck thousands at a rebuild to keep our babies tip top when other routes are good alternatives. In my case I had a snapped head stud, so no choice ultimately, but if I could save my hard earned dosh I would.... Hopefully a statesider will chime in with an opinion on this stuff too...!
I've recently bought a BMW X3 SD for the missus, the twin turbo diesel version. Really fast car but I was getting a stumble under load. My BMW specialist recommended a BG engine 'regeneration'. I thought it sounded like bollocks but as he was offering it for free as the BG rep was trying to sell my specialist the kit so I thought, why not? The rep spent a whole day 'cleaning' the innards of my engine, decoking the DPF and adding various treatments to it, I have no idea what he did exactly. The X3 now feels much better and no stumbling now whatsoever. Pulls like a train and my exhaust tips and insides are as clean as the outside - and I polish them a lot!
I know it's a diesel with a DPF and different situation but these BG Products seem a big deal in the US where cars do much higher mileages. Many people say using their products revives their engine and staves off a rebuild for a long time. If you're happy with the performance, all I'm saying is check it out. You've nothing to lose if it doesn't work but I too think we're too quick to chuck thousands at a rebuild to keep our babies tip top when other routes are good alternatives. In my case I had a snapped head stud, so no choice ultimately, but if I could save my hard earned dosh I would.... Hopefully a statesider will chime in with an opinion on this stuff too...!
05-06-2013, 07:22 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hi Jack, I am part of a pressure group campaigning against premature engine rebuilds..I think there is only me in the group though!
Anyway: I might not be up to date, but its not that common in my experience of this forum for 964's to be rebuilt because of oil smoke from the exhaust, rather than oil ON the exhaust...yes they wear with mileage, but wearing enough to get noticeably smokey?
My other thought is that the upper end of normal oil useage for 964 from the handbook (from memory, hope I am right) is 1.5l/1000km, so you are within spec..I blame the gentle driving for that, LOL.
I am not going to patronise you by asking if it is definitely oilsmoke. But...sometimes these cars put out so much water vapour, even a good few miles into a drive, I have found myself getting paranoid too.
However, it doesnt sound like you are clear under what conditions it is smoking - and I'd guess you need someone behind you, with your car fully warmed up on a warm day, to give info about whether there is a obvious blue smoke on acceleration/after standing at lights (traditionally this would be oil getting past the rings) or if it is on the overrun (traditionally more valve related).
Also need to be careful that it isn't oil dripping 'pretending' to be coming from the exhaust - before I sorted by valve covers my car would smoke spectacularly when I booted it - but it was just oil dumping on the heat exchanger under power...
Then there are the questions about oil (loads of people using 20W50 now) and compression test. Previous rebuild?
Anyway: I might not be up to date, but its not that common in my experience of this forum for 964's to be rebuilt because of oil smoke from the exhaust, rather than oil ON the exhaust...yes they wear with mileage, but wearing enough to get noticeably smokey?
My other thought is that the upper end of normal oil useage for 964 from the handbook (from memory, hope I am right) is 1.5l/1000km, so you are within spec..I blame the gentle driving for that, LOL.
I am not going to patronise you by asking if it is definitely oilsmoke. But...sometimes these cars put out so much water vapour, even a good few miles into a drive, I have found myself getting paranoid too.
However, it doesnt sound like you are clear under what conditions it is smoking - and I'd guess you need someone behind you, with your car fully warmed up on a warm day, to give info about whether there is a obvious blue smoke on acceleration/after standing at lights (traditionally this would be oil getting past the rings) or if it is on the overrun (traditionally more valve related).
Also need to be careful that it isn't oil dripping 'pretending' to be coming from the exhaust - before I sorted by valve covers my car would smoke spectacularly when I booted it - but it was just oil dumping on the heat exchanger under power...
Then there are the questions about oil (loads of people using 20W50 now) and compression test. Previous rebuild?
05-06-2013, 07:24 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I will sign up to your group Jonny, this myth its done a 100k it now needs a rebuild bollocks that seems to be a stigma on the 964 and to a certain degree the earlier 3.2, so many different factors affect the wear /condition of an engine a compression test will be a good indicator again you see rebuild being done because the figures are slightly out from spec but is this a reason to go and spend £5-10k not so sure to go and gain back a few lost BHP.
Pretty sure Nick will advise you the best way forward
Pretty sure Nick will advise you the best way forward
05-06-2013, 07:46 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
A leak test will tell you if either rings or valves are passing but will not indicate valve guide wear. No engine treatment will fix valve guides.
Worn guides is a common issue but does not normally cause constant oil smoke from the exhaust unless they are totally shot. Have you had the car on a ramp to see if oil is leaking onto the heat exchangers? BTW no harm in running on oil like 15w 50 especially on these engines.
Worn guides is a common issue but does not normally cause constant oil smoke from the exhaust unless they are totally shot. Have you had the car on a ramp to see if oil is leaking onto the heat exchangers? BTW no harm in running on oil like 15w 50 especially on these engines.
05-06-2013, 08:22 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
A leak test will tell you if either rings or valves are passing but will not indicate valve guide wear. No engine treatment will fix valve guides.
Worn guides is a common issue but does not normally cause constant oil smoke from the exhaust unless they are totally shot. Have you had the car on a ramp to see if oil is leaking onto the heat exchangers? BTW no harm in running on oil like 15w 50 especially on these engines.
Worn guides is a common issue but does not normally cause constant oil smoke from the exhaust unless they are totally shot. Have you had the car on a ramp to see if oil is leaking onto the heat exchangers? BTW no harm in running on oil like 15w 50 especially on these engines.
05-08-2013, 08:28 AM
#25
sounds like valve guide wear. Ok till up to temp. Then embarrassing when idling at lights. Goes away with a bit of throttle. Apparently, the original valve guides were not up to par but better replacements are available during the head job on a top end rebuild.
05-08-2013, 09:32 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Yep, these are the exact symptoms...
05-08-2013, 03:12 PM
#27
Instructor
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Jack, seems your getting to a diagnosis. Didn't see any smoke but your were cruising as i can up behind then took the slip. Happy to tail behind anytime though!
05-12-2013, 03:38 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Leakdown results..
Ok, so I went to Redtek over the weekend and got the leakdown done. Nick was not there but Sam and Mick were great. The results are interesting to say the least...
1: 22%
6: 22%
2. 80% !!!
4: 19%
3: 21%
5: 20%
So cyl 2 is particularly odd, especially as the engine runs very well and pulls well too.. test was carried out on warm engine. Odd thing is only one year ago when I got the car I had a leakdown carried out at Project 9 Engineering and the results were:
1:19%
2: 23%
3: 32%
4:17%
5: 22%
6: 19%
I know leakdown tests can vary a lot but still.. I guess the car was not smoking in those days either but amazing how much it has deteriorated in 3000 miles...
1: 22%
6: 22%
2. 80% !!!
4: 19%
3: 21%
5: 20%
So cyl 2 is particularly odd, especially as the engine runs very well and pulls well too.. test was carried out on warm engine. Odd thing is only one year ago when I got the car I had a leakdown carried out at Project 9 Engineering and the results were:
1:19%
2: 23%
3: 32%
4:17%
5: 22%
6: 19%
I know leakdown tests can vary a lot but still.. I guess the car was not smoking in those days either but amazing how much it has deteriorated in 3000 miles...
05-12-2013, 05:00 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Are the cylinder number correct? I notice they are in different orders. Has cyl#2 gone from 23% to 80%
I'm interested to hear what the expert advice is on this.
I'm interested to hear what the expert advice is on this.
05-12-2013, 05:25 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Ok, so I went to Redtek over the weekend and got the leakdown done. Nick was not there but Sam and Mick were great. The results are interesting to say the least...
1: 22%
6: 22%
2. 80% !!!
4: 19%
3: 21%
5: 20%
So cyl 2 is particularly odd, especially as the engine runs very well and pulls well too.. test was carried out on warm engine. Odd thing is only one year ago when I got the car I had a leakdown carried out at Project 9 Engineering and the results were:
1:19%
2: 23%
3: 32%
4:17%
5: 22%
6: 19%
I know leakdown tests can vary a lot but still.. I guess the car was not smoking in those days either but amazing how much it has deteriorated in 3000 miles...
1: 22%
6: 22%
2. 80% !!!
4: 19%
3: 21%
5: 20%
So cyl 2 is particularly odd, especially as the engine runs very well and pulls well too.. test was carried out on warm engine. Odd thing is only one year ago when I got the car I had a leakdown carried out at Project 9 Engineering and the results were:
1:19%
2: 23%
3: 32%
4:17%
5: 22%
6: 19%
I know leakdown tests can vary a lot but still.. I guess the car was not smoking in those days either but amazing how much it has deteriorated in 3000 miles...