911Jetta

I found this video very helpful... I love track driving but this is where the action is!
I guess it’s just the little kid in me that wants to take the car out in the rain just so I can practice kicking the tail out. It’s truly amazing how much control this engine layout gives a good driver.

Richard Tuthill says, "...For most people it’s back to front, but for those of us in the know, it’s about the optimum you can have for this period. It’s just a question of understanding the dynamic of the car."

"…I haven’t got a great concentration span, …so in a front engine, rear wheel drive car I’m genuinely bored in about a lap, but the 911 keeps asking you questions every second you drive it."

@ 4:10 the theory of driving a 911

As a bonus, it's the interviews first time driving a 911.

KaiB

WONDERFUL video.

I'll have to watch it several times before I can translate some of it over onto the dry track, but I do believe much will still apply.

race911

Go post this over on the 911 Forum where the faux journalist and his "blog" who bought a torsion bar car to do some feature with comes to the conclusion that the 911 is flawed/wrong/condemns anyone who even thought about owning one to hell.

911Jetta

Good, I was hoping it would add to the discussion. The exaggerated nature of the rally turns probably make it easier to point out what's happening...

searching...

boxsey911

Excellent video. Thanks for posting.

KaiB

Back to weight control/transfer again, aren't we?

Absolutely the same concepts apply on the track, yet speeds are increased, traction is far better and thus all of our inputs occur more gently when limits begin to get reached.

Who wants to write a bit about this???

ValveFloat

I didn't want to hijack TRAKCAR's thread, so I am posting this here.
In the First time DE in a 964RSA thread Kaib posted this:
I am very curious as to the methods one can use to accomplish this. My car ('91 coupe, about 550 - 675 lb-in springs, RS sways set in the middle front full stiff rear, camber 3° front 2.5° rear, toe about 1/8" front and rear, 225 and 255 NT01s, no LSD) is pretty loose/nervous on corner entry, and pushes quite a bit late in the corner as a I roll to throttle. The tighter the corner the worse the exit understeer is. I assume that a proper LSD could help with the corner entry nervousness allowing me to be more aggressive with the set-up for less corner exit push?
Is there something I am missing that can reduce corner exit understeer without increasing corner entry oversteer?

KaiB

Interweb stuff is difficult without asking the delicate stuff...but I'm coarse, so....

How fast are you? Experience? Don't be shy here, because the answer depends on your response. (GREAT question btw.).

Also, is your car niddly during and at the end of braking, at corner entry while trailing off the brakes (gut check time, be sure of your answer as very few of us actually trail brake), and what brakes are using?

Let's examine the driver before we look at the car (but, yep, a strong LSD is a big deal here)

Cheers!

ValveFloat

That isn't easy for me to answer, but I typically run with the advanced or instructor group at PCA DE's. I don't have lap times since I have not been data logging, that is on the winter project list. I have been driving on track and instructing for about 7 years, four of those in a 964. People that ride with me comment that I am consistent and smooth, rarely miss an apex. I like to read Ross Bentley stuff and have been working hard at keeping the car at the limit for the past two seasons.

The car is stable under braking when straight. I have to stay on top of it at corner entry, whether I am trailing off the brakes, or letting it finish turn in before going to the throttle. I have learned to anticipate the rotation, but sometimes I am hesitant to carry a lot of speed into corners, and I would rather not be. I certainly don't trail brake into all corners, but some I believe that I do. But your comment brings up something else I have been thinking about. I rarely brake all the way to the apex, I am usually starting to roll onto throttle by the apex. It seems though that in some corners anyway, braking all the way to the apex is going to be faster? Maybe I am unloading the front end too early in the corner?
The brakes are stock calipers with PFC 97.

Thank you for considering my questions.

TRAKCAR

ValveFloat, I'm not qualified but my 0.02c anyway; Everything I read makes me think you car just pushes too much on throttle. I don't Think LSD would fix that, may even make it worse.

If you keep the nose planted and come off the brake easy with some rotation and give it a little time to settle, it should not push you off the track?

Don't know how to get rid of that in your car.

BTW, hijack away

KaiB

(Edit to add: I re-read your post and must ponder the below over coffee. I do think you want a LSD for sure, but must temper my comment with a few words later after I get a chance to think. The entire "niddly during entry" phase and the concomitant use of the brakes to help rotate the car at the advanced level is one of the last things we learn to do well - any advice here must therefore be carefully considered)

Joe, I'd forgotten - you're DRIVING.

This is one of those times where, at least in my opinion, we have a case of a driver who has reached the limits of his car (at one certain point on the track)...and FINALLY...

...we get to discuss altering the car and NOT the driver.

(It's a lot less expensive to work on the driver - including the use of a pro coach, but...)

I do believe its time you installed a LSD. Get a Guard, don't think about it, it's now time to do so. Some might say that the LSD might exacerbate the mid to late corner push, but we have to work on the elephant in the room first.

Once that is done, and you can work the car with confidence at turn in, given your experience and feel, it should be easy to set the car up to do anything you desire later. Congratulations!!!

tahoelife

I too have been struggling with getting past throttle on under steer I had gotten in a habit of getting back on the gas sooner to stabilize the rear (no lsd either) and was making the car push on exit.. I tried to take later apex and rotate car more earlier in the turn so I could unwind the wheel sooner this worked but was slower. In the video above he says you just have to come in "hotter during turn in" Kai's term nibbly or nervous the car should feel and however un nerviing that is it is what it takes, once i carried enough speed to get all 4 tires to carry slip angle it was much easier to rotate the car and steer with the loud pedal. I am still learning to do this in more locations on the track (need more courage) but on the corners I now trust it is amazing as Peter (pro coach) states no more just grinding tires away. Trail braking to achieve this is my next learning curve for sure as Ross Bentley states 4 stages "un-consious incomp, concious incomp, consious comp,un-consious comp!" rinse and repeat

A huge thank you to all that are willing to teach those of us hungry to learn

KaiB

Both Heath and Joe are at the point in their cars that they are actually working them. At this phase, as Heath mentions, the driver enters "un-conscious competence" in R. Bentley's terms where inputs to the car are made without thought.

The "conscious competence" never leaves us though, as we must continue to work on learning, altering inputs and determining how we can help the car go faster.

I've given Joe's question a day's thought and will stand by my comment regarding the LSD. I believe this (assuming all else is more or less correct with the car and the alignment is good) could be a huge help. We're at the level now that diagnosis and tips via the interweb become difficult as many (many) differing things all play a role the car/driver performance - but as I mentioned above, we must first work on the elephant in the room.

In Joe's case, I honestly believe we need to change the car before we continue on the driver...he's good enough to then decide what he wants the car to do afterwards.

Back to the basics, though, as this is the heart of this thread. Joe "could" have one driver error which could lead to the niddlies he's experiencing at turn-in. What could it be? (hint, as usual....it involves weight transfer)

ghhally

Unsettling the car due to down shifting? Incorrect heel-toe?

HalV

Too hard on the the brakes leading into the turn (Not threshold braking)? Thus causing too much weight transfer to the front wheels?