niche

Coming from 993s. I have to say, im impressed with my 964 and personally I wouldn't cut it up to backdate. It will have its day in the sun.

Navaros911

I think it has to do with the price point of the 964.

Lots of value in the platform for anybody who wants to start in 911s and work it to what they want. I see plenty of projects wanting big engines and the 964 is the cheapest 3.6 L 911.

Babalouie

Maybe we need to turn this question around: why don't more 993 guys modify their cars?

I think a lot of 964 modification is to "RS-ify" your car, so we obsess over things like RS ride height and geo, we fit brake ducts and plain door cards, and we mod our exhausts with primary bypasses and drill our airboxes like the Carrera Cup cars had. We do it because it makes our cars more fun. Why don't the 993 guys do the same?

I mean, the 993RS is one of the most iconic and gorgeous Porsche driving machines ever. Wouldn't it be great, if you opened your garage door, and found something that looked and sounded an awful lot like an 993RS Clubsport?

I'm not having a go at anyone, I'm just curious as to why most 993 guys seem to resist even adopting factory-style mods.

Bill Verburg

yup


One difference is that to build a 993 RS RS/CS or Cup clone you use 993 parts

many of the upgrades to a 964 are implemented w/ 993 parts

mrm 930

The 964 as a backdated platform? I would take it as a compliment - the best chassis, suspension and steering set-up to build the best of the best in backdating.

After my 930 hot rod build is finished - this is the car I want to find and build. A backdated 964 to a RSR/R interpretation. I decided on the 964 because it has a more modern and stable base - backdating the 80's 911s or the SWB cars work, but not a good as the 964 can be.

3.6 motor - great options on this motor. Most everyone who does a hot rod 911 want the 3.6 liter motor - then you have conversion issues, DME issues, etc. The 964 is already set up.

Of course the price point is good. Huge bang for the buck.

I am the first to admit to you, that when the 964s came out - I wasn't too happy about it. The turbo version helped, but really was disappointed. However, that has changed, I really appreciate the styling of the 964s - still a classic. Now the 996s - that is another story - can't and probably won't get past these.

Just my view guys - no hater on the 964s. I think they drive incredibly well. Why else would Singer pick this model - great compliment

niche

+1

Bill Verburg

The 964 is often used as a backdate because it is the only sort of modern chassis that starts out looking sort of like a '69 -73 longhood. Singer is now taking a 964 C2 chassis as his base then adds 993 or 993RS front suspension and brakes and abs and trans and then goes from there.



Yes, 3.6 is in demand for early t/p's, I've had all 3 iterations in my '76, the stock 964 was ok, the 993RS was too much, a slightly breathed on 993 non vram is just right(IMO). any of the 55pin 964 or 993 engines are easy conversions electrically, the '96-98 US OBD2 are another matter entirely and are to be avoided.



again, because it is the only sort of modern chassis that sort of looks like an early 911, they strip out a lot of 964 parts and replace w/ 993 and 993RS parts as well as their own custom stuff.

Porsche964FP

...

Porsche964FP

I would tend to disagree.

The development of the 964 was undertaken during the 80s economical boom. To that effect Porsche had a vast amount of money at their disposal. The 959 is a case and point. Porsche spent serious money creating that platform, techniques and technologies that would be implemented into the 964.
You are right the AWD system is incredibly complex/ was very expensive - a serious tour de force in my mind. One that works incredibly well/ is very sophisticated.

Finally upon it's release we were in an economical down turn but the car had already been developed so it never suffered.
The only thing that the 964 suffered from was poor sales figures due to the down turn and thus bad upkeep by proceeding owners.
In my mind, the only reason 964s have had problems (apart from the missing head gasket in the early years) is due to their neglect - by owners who could not afford to keep their maintenance schedules correct. Only bought by them because they were once cheap.

Suddenly this unloved dog is making ground. People are realising how great they are/ the aforementioned.
Which in my mind is now reflected in how 964s are rapidly increasing in value and in cases have overtaken 993s here in the UK.


It's got nothing to do with having a dispassionate approach. It's got to do with understanding that 'strengths and weaknesses' are down to personal interpretation.

For example, IMO - I would love EVO uprights but shudder at the thought of the 993s rear suspension.

Does this mean I'm right? Hell no. It's just my personal interpretation of their 'strengths and weaknesses'.

No one has said the contrary - as to what you believe is an 'improvement' or 'deficiency' is a personal choice.

Porsche964FP

Many of the 964 guys here could afford a host of Pork inc 993s but they chose the 964.

'A Porsche was not built to be something to everyone, but everything to someone.'

All of us buy cars for different reasons.

Paul284pt

Frank,

You are absolutely correct on all points you made in your previous post regarding development and subsequent drop in sales.

To re-inforce your 2nd post, I have owned an SC (204bhp) when it was the car to have, followed by a Carrera 3.2 in 1989 into the early 90's, so I am qualified to speak. IMHO the SC was a better car than the 3.2, it was more willing and chuckable but oh, how I adore the 964. Yes, it had oil leaks etc., but they didn't take too much sorting.

I'm sure the 993 is also great car but I love the older look of the 964, which after all is the old-style 911 taken to it's ultimate development. I had always promised myself another air-cooled Porsche and opted for the 964 out of choice. I admit, initially as a platform for a backdate BUT it was just too nice a car.

Cheers,
Paul

timothymoffat

PLEASE DON'T "BACKDATE" YOUR 964s!

The 964 is a truly great 911, I'm preaching to the choir here. No problem at all with subtle mods but I don't understand why anyone would mess with the basic styling of a 964. As has been said over and over, it combines the best features of past models (those fenders and proportions, the bomb-proof interior) with a more powerful engine, ABS etc. it really doesn't get much better.

Bill Verburg

In the '80s the 911 series was expected to die, little was spent in developing it, the 964 was rushed to production w/ an AWD system borrowed form Audi's V8 Quattro series, they spent serious money but needed to spend more to get it right, but just didn't have the time or will, it was rushed to market to fill a hole where political pressure to make quieter more fuel efficient and less polluting cars was paramount, and their competition in the form of Honda NSX, BMW et all were producing significantly more modern cars. The still born 965 was the car they wanted to produce, the 964 was supposed to have more power but the rush to production short circuited that goal. read Ludvigson for the details, but here is a quote 'It( the 964) was heavy and costly to build. While it's performance was good, it's manners were less so' 'The 964 represented life support' It took Peter Falk and Ulrich Bez in the late '80s and early 90s to make the seeds started in the 964 program to bloom in the 993.

dispassionate is not in the eye of the beholder it is quantifiable, in any measurable way you want to assess these cars the 993 is faster, better handling and has better fuel efficiency. You may quibble about looks that is personal. In the same way a 996 is quantifiable better than a 993, though IMO it's appearance is the the worst


If you like 964s great, I do too but they are not the ne plus ultra of Porsche's line, neither is the 993 but the 993 did rectify most of the shortcomings found in the 964 series.

PChar

OK, I'll say it,... because the 993 crowd dont know the difference betwenn a hammer and a wrench,...

Paul284pt

Erm, I sure you mean with the exception of Bill