C2 vs C4
09-17-2012, 07:38 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
C2 vs C4
I have been looking for a 964 for some time and before I buy I thought I would get everyone's insight on performance and maintenance on C2s vs C4s? I know there is a weight difference(400lbs?) but other than that what major differences would there be in reliability, cost of ownership? My first choice is a C2 but to expand my search for condition and color should I consider the C4?
I know this is a difficult question but I would appreciate those in the know thoughts
TIA!
I know this is a difficult question but I would appreciate those in the know thoughts
TIA!
09-17-2012, 08:10 PM
#2
Its 300 lbs in the nose, which I think only helps the balance of the car.
I had both for a while 90 C2 and a 91 C4. Personally I like the C4 better it felt very sure footed and with Bilsteins and H&Rs it handles fine. A C4 is a little more complicated to do an yearly brake fluid on but I have had no problems with the AWD system. If you were going for an all out track car you might just want to stick with a C2 but for everyday driving it wasn't a hard choice for me, especially after seeing what one will do in snow, absolutely amazing. The C4 wont come out of a corner sideways like a C2 but how often do you really want to attract that kind of attention. I have ZERO regrets sending the C2 down the road to a new owner.
I had both for a while 90 C2 and a 91 C4. Personally I like the C4 better it felt very sure footed and with Bilsteins and H&Rs it handles fine. A C4 is a little more complicated to do an yearly brake fluid on but I have had no problems with the AWD system. If you were going for an all out track car you might just want to stick with a C2 but for everyday driving it wasn't a hard choice for me, especially after seeing what one will do in snow, absolutely amazing. The C4 wont come out of a corner sideways like a C2 but how often do you really want to attract that kind of attention. I have ZERO regrets sending the C2 down the road to a new owner.
09-17-2012, 08:12 PM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks Makmov. you having had both is a nice viewpoint! did you ever do any DEs? I have some interest there. Maybe a couple a year so you can have some legal fun!!
09-17-2012, 08:22 PM
#4
You will be just fine in a C4 at DE events.
The C4 started out with a whole bunch of understeer but that was easily dialed out mostly with lowering it and a good set of shocks. The old ones were shot. The little bit that is left can be taken care of with a rear bar.
The C2 feels a whole lot more nervous in the front end, and the really high speed corners are not nearly as comfortable as the C4, but you can still scare the crap out of yourself with one.
It will pretty much go faster around than you think possible.
If you start getting really crazy with set up and hot sticky tires, drive like a maniac and do a lot of DEs it's taxing on the AWD system, but that point you wont even want a stock C2 either. At that point start looking for a track car shell. Nevertheless, the AWD is pretty bullet proof and probably the best production system Porsche ever did. Most failures are attributed to neglect and stupidity.
The C4 started out with a whole bunch of understeer but that was easily dialed out mostly with lowering it and a good set of shocks. The old ones were shot. The little bit that is left can be taken care of with a rear bar.
The C2 feels a whole lot more nervous in the front end, and the really high speed corners are not nearly as comfortable as the C4, but you can still scare the crap out of yourself with one.
It will pretty much go faster around than you think possible.If you start getting really crazy with set up and hot sticky tires, drive like a maniac and do a lot of DEs it's taxing on the AWD system, but that point you wont even want a stock C2 either. At that point start looking for a track car shell. Nevertheless, the AWD is pretty bullet proof and probably the best production system Porsche ever did. Most failures are attributed to neglect and stupidity.
09-18-2012, 12:00 AM
#7
Drifting
This is good to hear. I'm new to 964s... coming from 993 world. Mine has a lot of understeer, but it's stock. I was nervous only because of the excellence buyers guide saying the c4 had a "sputnik" awd system that failed more than they liked. Also the talk of the head stud breakage... So far, though, I'm loving my c4.
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09-18-2012, 12:13 AM
#8
my stock C4 was a very poor car .. albeit it had bad chinese tyres but the performance was very poor ..
- the same speed as a porsche 924
- 10 seconds slower than a stock honda integra type r
- 12 seconds slower than a stock wrx
- 13 seconds slower than a stock m3
this is on a short 1.30secs track (ie not a huge long track with 12 minutes lap times!)
with better tyres, i would say the improvement would be about 5 seconds better ...
so stock 964s are pretty poor cars compared to modern cars .. with some new coilovers, tyres, pads, sway bars they are competitive to the m3s and WRXs.
- the same speed as a porsche 924
- 10 seconds slower than a stock honda integra type r
- 12 seconds slower than a stock wrx
- 13 seconds slower than a stock m3
this is on a short 1.30secs track (ie not a huge long track with 12 minutes lap times!)
with better tyres, i would say the improvement would be about 5 seconds better ...
so stock 964s are pretty poor cars compared to modern cars .. with some new coilovers, tyres, pads, sway bars they are competitive to the m3s and WRXs.
09-18-2012, 03:30 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
I've got a C4, and its great, on road and track.
I dont crave a C2, but in what way is a C4 'much better' for track days?
And as for being no faster than a 924 on track, something must have been seriously wrong with it
09-18-2012, 04:43 AM
#11
Must say I agree with Makmov. With my limited experience I prefer a C4. Having driven a C2 for 5 days straight recently it felt very twitchy, light at the front, not sure footed - having said that the example was bone stock and mine isn't. But I never remember having that feeling of looseness in my C4 when it was stock. I would go one step further and say that on track/ road a well set up C4 is absolutely brilliant. If you're going to compete/ race then start limiting yourself to a C2... and even then...
The acid test? Go drive both - see what you think....
The acid test? Go drive both - see what you think....
I would say that will be an almost unique point of view
I've got a C4, and its great, on road and track.
I dont crave a C2, but in what way is a C4 'much better' for track days?
And as for being no faster than a 924 on track, something must have been seriously wrong with it
I've got a C4, and its great, on road and track.
I dont crave a C2, but in what way is a C4 'much better' for track days?
And as for being no faster than a 924 on track, something must have been seriously wrong with it
09-18-2012, 05:18 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
What other suspension changes have you made?
my stock C4 was a very poor car .. albeit it had bad chinese tyres but the performance was very poor ..
- the same speed as a porsche 924
- 10 seconds slower than a stock honda integra type r
- 12 seconds slower than a stock wrx
- 13 seconds slower than a stock m3
this is on a short 1.30secs track (ie not a huge long track with 12 minutes lap times!)
with better tyres, i would say the improvement would be about 5 seconds better ...
so stock 964s are pretty poor cars compared to modern cars .. with some new coilovers, tyres, pads, sway bars they are competitive to the m3s and WRXs.
- the same speed as a porsche 924
- 10 seconds slower than a stock honda integra type r
- 12 seconds slower than a stock wrx
- 13 seconds slower than a stock m3
this is on a short 1.30secs track (ie not a huge long track with 12 minutes lap times!)
with better tyres, i would say the improvement would be about 5 seconds better ...
so stock 964s are pretty poor cars compared to modern cars .. with some new coilovers, tyres, pads, sway bars they are competitive to the m3s and WRXs.
I'd expect to see more than 5 seconds improvement with a proper track tyre over an unbranded chinese tyre.
In any event, a properly set up stock 964 is more than comparible to a majority of modern cars with similar power to weight and driver capability. Before my car got its numerous track mods it was often to be found keeping pace with Scooby, S2000, RX7s and 8s, Lotus Elise, and that was with factory pads and road tyres (Conti SC2).
For an occasional track car a C4 is no better or worse than a C2, and vice versa. 4wd has some traction merits, but also a weight disadvantage, particularly if you're considering a serious race car...but by that stage you'll have more things to worry about, like which class you'll be competing in, etc...
I would recommend, as others have, that you drive both and no matter what buy based upon condition and history rather than whether it's 2 or 4 wheel drive.
09-18-2012, 05:39 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
09-18-2012, 05:47 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
After reading the topics on this forum for over 5 years I would say that the differences in the costs of maintenance, reliability and performance are negligible. Therefore the choice comes down to whether you prefer the feel of two wheel drive to four wheel drive.
09-18-2012, 06:02 AM
#15
Pro
Here's my two pennies...
I am a C2 owner, I haven't driven a C4 for a while but from memory, the final decision was based on the C2 just feeling more of a '911' experience (having driven many 930s and 993s previously). That said, I was experiencing understeer with the C4, so it hadn't been sorted with new suspension etc.
I am however, basing my experience on road driving, as I haven't driven either on a track. The C2 (to me) does feel pretty sure footed in most conditions, as long as you remember the 'slow in, fast out' rule of thumb. It can catch you out in the wet or if you do something stupid, but is a really rewarding drive once you get familiar with the car.
Not 964s (so slightly irrelevant) but I did have the opportunity to drive a C2 and C4 997 (Gen 2s) back to back on the Porsche Silverstone handling circuit last year and although I loved them both and was very impressed with how planted with grip the C4 was. I was still experiencing some understeer when pushing it through the bends, so would still take the C2.
At the end of the day, it is very much down to personal taste and which suits your driving style the best, so try them both.
I am a C2 owner, I haven't driven a C4 for a while but from memory, the final decision was based on the C2 just feeling more of a '911' experience (having driven many 930s and 993s previously). That said, I was experiencing understeer with the C4, so it hadn't been sorted with new suspension etc.
I am however, basing my experience on road driving, as I haven't driven either on a track. The C2 (to me) does feel pretty sure footed in most conditions, as long as you remember the 'slow in, fast out' rule of thumb. It can catch you out in the wet or if you do something stupid, but is a really rewarding drive once you get familiar with the car.
Not 964s (so slightly irrelevant) but I did have the opportunity to drive a C2 and C4 997 (Gen 2s) back to back on the Porsche Silverstone handling circuit last year and although I loved them both and was very impressed with how planted with grip the C4 was. I was still experiencing some understeer when pushing it through the bends, so would still take the C2.
At the end of the day, it is very much down to personal taste and which suits your driving style the best, so try them both.